1 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:02,389 a large study on masks details their 2 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:05,269 importance in the fight against coven 3 00:00:09,030 --> 00:00:07,190 for an in-depth look we spoke to one of 4 00:00:11,509 --> 00:00:09,040 the lead authors of that study 5 00:00:14,310 --> 00:00:11,519 researchers at stanford yale and uc 6 00:00:16,630 --> 00:00:14,320 berkeley analyzed 350 000 adults in 7 00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:16,640 bangladesh now they took half of that 8 00:00:22,310 --> 00:00:18,960 group and encouraged them to wear masks 9 00:00:24,550 --> 00:00:22,320 29 of them uh complied with that for 10 00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:24,560 about a 10-week period they found that 11 00:00:29,349 --> 00:00:27,840 max in general provided a 9 reduction in 12 00:00:31,830 --> 00:00:29,359 cases 13 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:31,840 yeah junk science and today on skeptico 14 00:00:36,630 --> 00:00:34,320 our guest dr andy paquette will break 15 00:00:37,670 --> 00:00:36,640 down what is one of the most deceptive 16 00:00:39,750 --> 00:00:37,680 studies 17 00:00:41,510 --> 00:00:39,760 i've run across i mean this discussion 18 00:00:44,310 --> 00:00:41,520 even brought us back to the sheldrick 19 00:00:45,110 --> 00:00:44,320 wiseman days but let's roll on with the 20 00:00:47,510 --> 00:00:45,120 clip 21 00:00:50,549 --> 00:00:47,520 surgical masks were even more efficient 22 00:00:52,549 --> 00:00:50,559 reducing cases by 11 percent 23 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:52,559 ashley stewsinski one of the lead 24 00:00:56,709 --> 00:00:54,640 authors in the study and an infectious 25 00:00:58,950 --> 00:00:56,719 disease fellow at stanford says the 26 00:01:01,349 --> 00:00:58,960 results offer a glimpse of just how much 27 00:01:02,950 --> 00:01:01,359 masks matter 28 00:01:05,189 --> 00:01:02,960 so overall we felt that this 29 00:01:08,469 --> 00:01:05,199 demonstrated that masks are highly 30 00:01:10,469 --> 00:01:08,479 effective in reducing copin 19. 31 00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:10,479 yeah alex i gotta say like a couple 32 00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:13,360 things i'm sorry this is just yeah first 33 00:01:17,109 --> 00:01:15,360 off the first headline was much more 34 00:01:18,789 --> 00:01:17,119 sensational than the second one both of 35 00:01:20,310 --> 00:01:18,799 them are not based on any kind of 36 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:20,320 foundation of evidence found in this 37 00:01:25,749 --> 00:01:22,240 article but the thing that really got me 38 00:01:27,910 --> 00:01:25,759 was that clip of the uh the tv news so 39 00:01:30,870 --> 00:01:27,920 the tv announcer says that they found a 40 00:01:32,630 --> 00:01:30,880 nine percent reduction in cases and then 41 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:32,640 the lady says yes it's nine percent up 42 00:01:35,510 --> 00:01:34,000 to 11 43 00:01:37,830 --> 00:01:35,520 for this other condition and i'm 44 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:37,840 thinking i just read that paper and what 45 00:01:41,350 --> 00:01:39,520 they just said is wrong it's a nine 46 00:01:43,030 --> 00:01:41,360 percent relative reduction the actual 47 00:01:45,109 --> 00:01:43,040 absolute reduction 48 00:01:47,429 --> 00:01:45,119 was something like point zero zero two 49 00:01:49,830 --> 00:01:47,439 percent it was tiny 50 00:01:52,469 --> 00:01:49,840 the headline to me is 51 00:01:54,550 --> 00:01:52,479 big lie and when i say big lie mean it's 52 00:01:57,510 --> 00:01:54,560 kind of well known in propaganda 53 00:01:59,830 --> 00:01:57,520 is the best way to hide a lie is to make 54 00:02:01,990 --> 00:01:59,840 it a big lie because little lies are 55 00:02:04,310 --> 00:02:02,000 liable to be exposed if they would have 56 00:02:06,709 --> 00:02:04,320 just tried to bury this study and not 57 00:02:09,350 --> 00:02:06,719 put it out and someone stumbled across 58 00:02:12,550 --> 00:02:09,360 it and said hey here's another null 59 00:02:14,309 --> 00:02:12,560 result stack it alongside the the danish 60 00:02:16,869 --> 00:02:14,319 study that just came out randomized 61 00:02:19,030 --> 00:02:16,879 control study that shows no result stack 62 00:02:21,350 --> 00:02:19,040 it along with all the epidemiological 63 00:02:24,309 --> 00:02:21,360 data which we should talk about i think 64 00:02:26,710 --> 00:02:24,319 what they've done is they've hyped it up 65 00:02:29,510 --> 00:02:26,720 in order to bury it so the debate 66 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:29,520 becomes well you know did they really do 67 00:02:33,430 --> 00:02:31,280 it you know did they do this right who 68 00:02:34,949 --> 00:02:33,440 did they force to do it when what the 69 00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:34,959 real story is 70 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:37,280 another null result 71 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:39,120 welcome to skeptico where we explore 72 00:02:43,509 --> 00:02:41,200 controversial science and spirituality 73 00:02:46,229 --> 00:02:43,519 with leading researchers thinkers and 74 00:02:48,790 --> 00:02:46,239 their critics i'm your host alex sacaris 75 00:02:50,949 --> 00:02:48,800 and today we welcome back dr andrew 76 00:02:53,589 --> 00:02:50,959 paquette de skeptico 77 00:02:56,309 --> 00:02:53,599 andy is probably best known 78 00:03:00,070 --> 00:02:56,319 at least to skeptical listeners 79 00:03:04,070 --> 00:03:00,080 for his work in cataloging and analyzing 80 00:03:06,390 --> 00:03:04,080 just an amazing collection of dreams and 81 00:03:08,470 --> 00:03:06,400 we talked to andy way back in the day 82 00:03:10,149 --> 00:03:08,480 when this book dreamer 20 years of 83 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:10,159 psychic dreams and how they changed my 84 00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:13,040 life when that book came out and i have 85 00:03:17,589 --> 00:03:15,920 stayed in contact with andy he's really 86 00:03:18,710 --> 00:03:17,599 become a friend of mine and a friend of 87 00:03:19,589 --> 00:03:18,720 the shows 88 00:03:21,430 --> 00:03:19,599 he's 89 00:03:23,110 --> 00:03:21,440 also i should mention as you might have 90 00:03:25,350 --> 00:03:23,120 seen from the website of his that i 91 00:03:27,910 --> 00:03:25,360 pulled up there he is 92 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:27,920 just an incredible artist 93 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:29,920 and somewhat well known he's also a 94 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:32,720 professional photographer has done work 95 00:03:37,509 --> 00:03:36,000 in major publications major media 96 00:03:39,589 --> 00:03:37,519 publications maybe he'll mention him 97 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:39,599 that anyone would know he's also a 98 00:03:44,229 --> 00:03:42,000 graphic artist and 99 00:03:46,630 --> 00:03:44,239 he a couple years ago he got his phd 100 00:03:48,789 --> 00:03:46,640 from king's college london on something 101 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:48,799 called spatial visualization among 102 00:03:53,589 --> 00:03:52,000 digital artists which i don't know what 103 00:03:55,110 --> 00:03:53,599 that means 104 00:03:56,710 --> 00:03:55,120 but now that i've laid out andy's 105 00:03:59,270 --> 00:03:56,720 amazing background i want to tell you we 106 00:04:03,030 --> 00:03:59,280 are probably not going to talk about 107 00:04:06,390 --> 00:04:03,040 much of any of that today because 108 00:04:08,229 --> 00:04:06,400 andy is this renaissance man of bio that 109 00:04:10,309 --> 00:04:08,239 covers all these different things 110 00:04:12,470 --> 00:04:10,319 but one of the things i always think of 111 00:04:15,429 --> 00:04:12,480 andy and the reason he's kind of my 112 00:04:17,670 --> 00:04:15,439 go-to guy for this particular show is he 113 00:04:20,069 --> 00:04:17,680 is a scientist i mean he's published in 114 00:04:21,749 --> 00:04:20,079 peer-reviewed journals particularly he's 115 00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:21,759 published in the journal of scientific 116 00:04:25,430 --> 00:04:24,000 exploration a couple times but he's also 117 00:04:27,590 --> 00:04:25,440 published in 118 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:27,600 other peer-reviewed journals but the one 119 00:04:31,590 --> 00:04:29,680 that always pops to my mind is the 120 00:04:34,230 --> 00:04:31,600 journal of scientific exploration 121 00:04:37,270 --> 00:04:34,240 because i know the standards there i 122 00:04:39,909 --> 00:04:37,280 know how tough it is because it is its 123 00:04:42,310 --> 00:04:39,919 roots are as a parapsychology journal 124 00:04:45,030 --> 00:04:42,320 and parapsychologists have been so 125 00:04:47,030 --> 00:04:45,040 picked on over the years that they're 126 00:04:49,909 --> 00:04:47,040 extra careful about how they do their 127 00:04:52,469 --> 00:04:49,919 work and andy has been extra careful 128 00:04:54,550 --> 00:04:52,479 about that and i know over the years as 129 00:04:57,590 --> 00:04:54,560 he shared some of his 130 00:04:59,990 --> 00:04:57,600 papers with me i've seen how he sweated 131 00:05:02,390 --> 00:05:00,000 over the details of getting the 132 00:05:03,830 --> 00:05:02,400 statistics right and in a minute as we 133 00:05:05,270 --> 00:05:03,840 get on with this interview maybe he'll 134 00:05:06,310 --> 00:05:05,280 even tell you about 135 00:05:09,189 --> 00:05:06,320 when he 136 00:05:12,310 --> 00:05:09,199 kind of leaned on dr daryl bem very 137 00:05:14,390 --> 00:05:12,320 famous professor from cornell who's also 138 00:05:17,189 --> 00:05:14,400 well published in this field and how 139 00:05:19,670 --> 00:05:17,199 andy collaborated with him as scientists 140 00:05:21,590 --> 00:05:19,680 do to get their science right to get 141 00:05:24,469 --> 00:05:21,600 their statistics right 142 00:05:28,710 --> 00:05:24,479 so all that is just a background for 143 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:28,720 why i felt andy was a perfect perfect 144 00:05:33,270 --> 00:05:30,880 fit as a go-to guy 145 00:05:35,830 --> 00:05:33,280 to analyze this 146 00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:35,840 very very interesting study that we're 147 00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:38,720 going to look at today but before we get 148 00:05:42,150 --> 00:05:41,120 into it and we will get into it really 149 00:05:44,790 --> 00:05:42,160 quickly 150 00:05:46,710 --> 00:05:44,800 andy welcome welcome back and thanks for 151 00:05:47,510 --> 00:05:46,720 joining me what else did i leave out of 152 00:05:53,990 --> 00:05:47,520 that 153 00:05:55,909 --> 00:05:54,000 well you you did leave out the writing 154 00:05:58,950 --> 00:05:55,919 i've been doing lately 155 00:06:00,870 --> 00:05:58,960 because i on the call i was making i 156 00:06:03,590 --> 00:06:00,880 guess it was about a year ago 157 00:06:05,510 --> 00:06:03,600 relating to a photo shoot i wound up 158 00:06:07,110 --> 00:06:05,520 instead talking myself into a job as a 159 00:06:09,350 --> 00:06:07,120 staff writer 160 00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:09,360 writing articles about current events 161 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:11,440 and that was for an online publication 162 00:06:14,950 --> 00:06:13,440 called law enforcement today 163 00:06:17,830 --> 00:06:14,960 and then i've been doing that more 164 00:06:21,189 --> 00:06:17,840 recently for red voice media where i've 165 00:06:24,070 --> 00:06:21,199 just become a regular columnist so and 166 00:06:25,830 --> 00:06:24,080 the as far as the number of articles at 167 00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:25,840 the journal of scientific exploration i 168 00:06:29,590 --> 00:06:27,680 believe it's five that they've published 169 00:06:31,590 --> 00:06:29,600 one for the international journal 170 00:06:33,749 --> 00:06:31,600 journal of dream research and another 171 00:06:36,870 --> 00:06:33,759 one one that i did in a journal on 172 00:06:39,189 --> 00:06:36,880 education research my my research for my 173 00:06:40,309 --> 00:06:39,199 phd was about the development of 174 00:06:42,550 --> 00:06:40,319 professional 175 00:06:45,110 --> 00:06:42,560 levels of competence and i used computer 176 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:45,120 graphics artists as as a group that i 177 00:06:49,589 --> 00:06:46,960 was going to study to to find that but 178 00:06:52,150 --> 00:06:49,599 the overall goal is just to look at how 179 00:06:54,870 --> 00:06:52,160 competence or proficiency or even 180 00:06:56,550 --> 00:06:54,880 expertise is achieved primarily because 181 00:06:59,990 --> 00:06:56,560 i wanted to contest 182 00:07:01,670 --> 00:07:00,000 the idea that you actually have to like 183 00:07:03,589 --> 00:07:01,680 study something hard for 10 years in 184 00:07:04,390 --> 00:07:03,599 order to gain expertise my impression 185 00:07:06,950 --> 00:07:04,400 was 186 00:07:09,909 --> 00:07:06,960 if you found the key concepts that 187 00:07:11,589 --> 00:07:09,919 defined expertise and you did it quickly 188 00:07:15,110 --> 00:07:11,599 you would be an expert even if it took 189 00:07:16,390 --> 00:07:15,120 you 30 days and i was able to show that 190 00:07:19,589 --> 00:07:16,400 there's probably a few other things i 191 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:19,599 left out but it's good enough 192 00:07:22,710 --> 00:07:20,880 you mentioned that i worked on 193 00:07:24,870 --> 00:07:22,720 spider-man the movie or daredevil or 194 00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:24,880 space jam you didn't mention the games i 195 00:07:29,189 --> 00:07:27,680 worked on like unreal and uh parasite 196 00:07:32,390 --> 00:07:29,199 eve or full spectrum warrior those are 197 00:07:35,189 --> 00:07:32,400 all big titles too anyway you can go on 198 00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:35,199 or my tv show forgot about that i did a 199 00:07:38,390 --> 00:07:37,120 comic book that became a tv series 200 00:07:40,870 --> 00:07:38,400 called harsh rome it was awful don't 201 00:07:43,189 --> 00:07:40,880 worry about it but still it's a it's a 202 00:07:45,830 --> 00:07:43,199 tv show not many people get those 203 00:07:48,550 --> 00:07:45,840 so interesting background and again you 204 00:07:50,390 --> 00:07:48,560 have this kind of amazing graphic artist 205 00:07:51,670 --> 00:07:50,400 background and there's all sorts of 206 00:07:54,070 --> 00:07:51,680 interesting 207 00:07:56,309 --> 00:07:54,080 skeptico like stories about that that 208 00:07:58,070 --> 00:07:56,319 we've connected on over the years 209 00:08:01,510 --> 00:07:58,080 but what i'm really trying to punch up 210 00:08:03,270 --> 00:08:01,520 and tell me if i'm doing it too much is 211 00:08:06,869 --> 00:08:03,280 i think you understand 212 00:08:10,070 --> 00:08:06,879 how to analyze this mask study that was 213 00:08:13,110 --> 00:08:10,080 done on the impact of community masking 214 00:08:15,589 --> 00:08:13,120 in covet 19 this is a study from yale 215 00:08:17,990 --> 00:08:15,599 and stanford it made somewhat of a 216 00:08:20,230 --> 00:08:18,000 splash in the media because they found 217 00:08:22,790 --> 00:08:20,240 god darn it just put on those masks like 218 00:08:24,309 --> 00:08:22,800 we told you here is the best science 219 00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:24,319 here's the science you've been clamoring 220 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:27,120 about waiting for here it is nail in the 221 00:08:31,589 --> 00:08:30,160 coffin research so let me start with 222 00:08:34,310 --> 00:08:31,599 this andy 223 00:08:36,469 --> 00:08:34,320 when did you first hear about this study 224 00:08:38,469 --> 00:08:36,479 i know i sent it to you had you heard 225 00:08:40,550 --> 00:08:38,479 about it before then 226 00:08:43,190 --> 00:08:40,560 uh no i hadn't i the first time i knew 227 00:08:45,110 --> 00:08:43,200 about it was from you i thought it might 228 00:08:47,110 --> 00:08:45,120 have been me who kind of turned you onto 229 00:08:48,870 --> 00:08:47,120 this because as you know i've been on 230 00:08:51,509 --> 00:08:48,880 this mask thing 231 00:08:54,710 --> 00:08:51,519 for a while and that when i say the mass 232 00:08:56,870 --> 00:08:54,720 thing this idea of whether or not masks 233 00:08:59,670 --> 00:08:56,880 are really effective in 234 00:09:01,350 --> 00:08:59,680 controlling the spread of covet among 235 00:09:03,030 --> 00:09:01,360 the general population 236 00:09:05,350 --> 00:09:03,040 so we might get into that in a minute 237 00:09:07,269 --> 00:09:05,360 and we have to differentiate between 238 00:09:09,910 --> 00:09:07,279 whether they work in a lab to whether 239 00:09:11,750 --> 00:09:09,920 they work out in the general population 240 00:09:13,670 --> 00:09:11,760 but i've kind of really gone out there 241 00:09:15,590 --> 00:09:13,680 and i've hammered a number of guests on 242 00:09:19,110 --> 00:09:15,600 the show and even had a debate on the 243 00:09:21,110 --> 00:09:19,120 show saying that masks don't work 244 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:21,120 that you always get a null result 245 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:23,040 whenever these studies are done 246 00:09:28,470 --> 00:09:26,080 and then somebody on the skeptical forum 247 00:09:30,949 --> 00:09:28,480 pointed me to this 248 00:09:32,630 --> 00:09:30,959 what is published here in 249 00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:32,640 live science 250 00:09:37,509 --> 00:09:34,640 and the title reads 251 00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:37,519 huge gold standard study shows 252 00:09:44,230 --> 00:09:41,120 unequivocally that surgical masks work 253 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:44,240 to reduce covet spread so i started 254 00:09:47,509 --> 00:09:46,080 looking into that i found a similar 255 00:09:50,550 --> 00:09:47,519 article 256 00:09:53,990 --> 00:09:50,560 on the washington post i'll read in 257 00:09:56,470 --> 00:09:54,000 that headline which is also sensational 258 00:10:00,070 --> 00:09:56,480 massive randomized study is proof that 259 00:10:01,509 --> 00:10:00,080 surgical masks limit coronavirus spread 260 00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:01,519 authors say 261 00:10:04,870 --> 00:10:03,120 and one other thing i want to share with 262 00:10:07,750 --> 00:10:04,880 folks is 263 00:10:11,190 --> 00:10:07,760 how it played out in the in the news 264 00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:11,200 news being kind of in quotes here but 265 00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:13,120 i wanted to play 266 00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:15,279 this how it was processed by mainstream 267 00:10:19,269 --> 00:10:16,880 media news 268 00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:19,279 a large study on masks details their 269 00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:21,120 importance in the fight against covet 270 00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:23,120 for an in-depth look we spoke to one of 271 00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:24,959 the lead authors of that study 272 00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:27,360 researchers at stanford yale and uc 273 00:10:32,870 --> 00:10:30,240 berkeley analyzed 350 000 adults in 274 00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:32,880 bangladesh they took half of that group 275 00:10:38,310 --> 00:10:35,519 and encouraged them to wear masks 29 276 00:10:40,790 --> 00:10:38,320 percent of them compiled complied with 277 00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:40,800 that for about a 10-week period they 278 00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:43,760 found that max in general provided a 9 279 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:46,640 reduction in cases surgical masks were 280 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:49,440 even more efficient reducing cases by 11 281 00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:50,800 percent 282 00:10:54,949 --> 00:10:52,800 ashley stewsinski one of the lead 283 00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:54,959 authors in the study and an infectious 284 00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:56,959 disease fellow at stanford says the 285 00:11:01,670 --> 00:10:59,279 results offer a glimpse of just how much 286 00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:01,680 masks matter 287 00:11:05,509 --> 00:11:03,279 so overall we felt that this 288 00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:05,519 demonstrated that masks are highly 289 00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:08,720 effective in reducing copic 19 290 00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,560 and that if we were able to achieve even 291 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:12,720 more uptake than the 29 percentage point 292 00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:14,560 increase we saw we would have probably 293 00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:16,640 been able to measure a greater effect 294 00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:20,959 the study found people 60 and older they 295 00:11:25,190 --> 00:11:22,720 i'm going to pause it there were you 296 00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:25,200 able to hear all that yeah alex i got to 297 00:11:29,829 --> 00:11:27,519 say like a couple things i'm sorry this 298 00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:29,839 is just yeah first off the first 299 00:11:33,509 --> 00:11:31,760 headline was much more sensational than 300 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:33,519 the second one both of them are not 301 00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:35,040 based on any kind of foundation of 302 00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:36,959 evidence found in this article but the 303 00:11:41,430 --> 00:11:38,640 thing that really got me was that clip 304 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:41,440 of the uh the tv news so 305 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:43,600 the tv announcer says that they found a 306 00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:46,560 nine percent reduction in cases and then 307 00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:48,320 the lady says yes it's nine percent up 308 00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:49,680 to 11 309 00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:51,120 for this other condition and i'm 310 00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:53,440 thinking i just read that paper and what 311 00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:55,120 they just said is wrong it's a nine 312 00:11:58,629 --> 00:11:57,040 percent relative reduction the actual 313 00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,639 absolute reduction 314 00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:00,720 was something like point zero zero two 315 00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:02,720 percent it was tiny 316 00:12:07,590 --> 00:12:04,560 so for them to call that a nine percent 317 00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:07,600 or an eleven percent uh um value 318 00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:10,800 extrapolated from a 9 to 11 relative 319 00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:12,079 value when you're comparing two numbers 320 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:14,240 that are almost identical is really 321 00:12:18,230 --> 00:12:16,240 disingenuous now maybe they're just 322 00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:18,240 stupid i suppose that's possible they 323 00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:21,360 are no one no no no don't don't go there 324 00:12:25,670 --> 00:12:23,680 with that second part i i want to roll 325 00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:25,680 this back a little bit because i i've 326 00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,440 just kind of played in 327 00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:30,000 the the first impact because 328 00:12:33,829 --> 00:12:32,240 as i tell the story you know 329 00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,839 i've been hammering the mask stuff 330 00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:35,760 forever because i looked at 331 00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:37,760 i looked at the existing data and the 332 00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:39,519 existing data always had a null result 333 00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:40,959 whenever you took it out and tested it 334 00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:43,440 in the general population no result no 335 00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:45,680 result just recently that there was a 336 00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:47,839 danish study published same thing no 337 00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:50,880 result when we actually try and apply 338 00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:52,880 masking to people in the general 339 00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:54,959 population there's no difference it 340 00:12:58,470 --> 00:12:56,160 doesn't make a difference if you wear a 341 00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,480 mask it's not effective no result no 342 00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:00,320 result that to me seemed to be the 343 00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:03,040 overriding data so when i first heard 344 00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:05,279 this report when it was published 345 00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,560 on the skeptical forum which is the 346 00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:08,399 first time i did and i found that 347 00:13:12,790 --> 00:13:10,800 article on live science 348 00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,800 i gotta tell you because i think this is 349 00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:14,639 where it hits people 350 00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:16,240 my heart dropped 351 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:20,720 god i'm an idiot 352 00:13:24,870 --> 00:13:23,040 i'm i've been wrong and i've been 353 00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:24,880 spreading this 354 00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:26,880 stupid information 355 00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:29,200 and here are these really smart people 356 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,560 at yale 357 00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:32,480 and at stanford 358 00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:34,800 and they're doing it they're way smarter 359 00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:37,680 than me about this stuff and they're so 360 00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:39,040 confident 361 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:40,880 nail in the coffin 362 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:44,240 level of research gold standard study 363 00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:46,560 those are not my words highest quality 364 00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:48,639 gold standard type of clinical trial 365 00:13:55,189 --> 00:13:51,360 known as randomized control trial 366 00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:55,199 should end any scientific debate 367 00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:57,519 so says jason alep 368 00:14:03,350 --> 00:14:00,720 aloluck an economist at yale 369 00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:03,360 and i i want to get into this but i have 370 00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:06,079 to say is as this first hit me and my 371 00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:08,880 kind of like i say my heart dropped 372 00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:10,959 there are also a couple of things that 373 00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:13,600 immediately jumped out at me 374 00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:16,079 and i want you to because we talked 375 00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,920 about this and i want you to talk about 376 00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:19,519 it as well 377 00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:22,160 when i when i heard such over-the-top 378 00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:23,760 language as 379 00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:26,959 should end any scientific debate 380 00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:29,360 it did cast an immediate doubt in my 381 00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:31,120 mind like hey maybe there's something 382 00:14:34,150 --> 00:14:32,000 here 383 00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:34,160 that we need to look into what did you 384 00:14:37,189 --> 00:14:35,120 think 385 00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:37,199 when you read that kind of stuff 386 00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:38,880 look there's there's a couple things 387 00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:41,199 like for instance the the comment about 388 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,600 ending scientific debate 389 00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:45,360 that one acknowledges that there is a 390 00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:47,360 scientific debate which 391 00:14:50,230 --> 00:14:48,240 is 392 00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,240 in opposition to all the rest of the 393 00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:52,079 media signaling which is telling us that 394 00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:54,000 there is no scientific debate because 395 00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:56,160 everyone agrees about this stuff because 396 00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:57,680 science says 397 00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,600 masks are good so the mere fact that 398 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,199 they're actually saying this is the nail 399 00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,120 in the coffin of that argument 400 00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,440 is telling me there is an argument why 401 00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:07,600 you are now admitting this here which is 402 00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:09,680 something that you're denying beforehand 403 00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:12,079 so and and when you use extravagant 404 00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:14,079 language like nail in the coffin you 405 00:15:18,310 --> 00:15:16,399 know or examples like that 406 00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:18,320 it also makes me highly suspicious i 407 00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,399 mean my my tendency when i'm reading 408 00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:22,560 that kind of language or hyperbole is to 409 00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:24,399 not trust it i'm like immediately 410 00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:25,680 suspicious that what they're saying is 411 00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:27,040 the opposite of what i'm going to find 412 00:15:29,670 --> 00:15:28,240 when i look at whatever it is that 413 00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:29,680 they're talking about 414 00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:31,920 because that tends to be the case for a 415 00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:34,000 pre-published paper 416 00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:35,839 on top of it right 417 00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:37,759 well the fact is pre-published really 418 00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:39,199 bothers me 419 00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,399 i i don't know what would persuade a a 420 00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:45,040 real proper scientist to send out a 421 00:15:51,150 --> 00:15:48,240 document before it's been peer-reviewed 422 00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:51,160 and and to tout it as something that's a 423 00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:53,040 pre-publication version of something 424 00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:55,279 that the they intend to put through peer 425 00:15:59,829 --> 00:15:58,399 review to me that that one reason you 426 00:16:02,069 --> 00:15:59,839 might do that i suppose is if you're 427 00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:02,079 worried that it won't pass peer review 428 00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:04,399 and so you want to get a step ahead of 429 00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:06,560 that by by getting some popular support 430 00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:08,240 for it among people who actually don't 431 00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:10,320 know enough to understand the mistakes 432 00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:12,320 that you've made again this is the 433 00:16:16,069 --> 00:16:14,240 direction my thinking takes when i when 434 00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,079 i see this but frankly i think it's 435 00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:18,480 really bad matters to do it but on top 436 00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:20,320 of that i also think it's bad science 437 00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:21,839 because the thing is the peer review 438 00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:24,320 process is helpful to the authors it's 439 00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:26,240 very helpful i wouldn't want to present 440 00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:28,079 something that hadn't been peer reviewed 441 00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:29,920 for a number of reasons but one of them 442 00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:32,480 is i rather appreciate the help i get 443 00:16:36,949 --> 00:16:34,160 from the people who peer review my 444 00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:36,959 articles they don't just put a stamp of 445 00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:38,639 approval on these things and then and 446 00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:40,560 then send them in for publication they 447 00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:42,480 make comments that are genuinely useful 448 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:44,399 i i get those comments i'm like oh gee i 449 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,160 really should clarify this point or i 450 00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:48,480 should correct this number and once i've 451 00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:50,639 done that i feel a lot more confident in 452 00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:53,040 the paper so if i do it before i've ever 453 00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:55,040 shown it to anybody for peer review i'm 454 00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:56,720 thinking you know i have less confidence 455 00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:58,880 in my own work right now because it 456 00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,120 hasn't been vetted by anyone else so why 457 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:04,079 is it that these guys are doing it 458 00:17:07,669 --> 00:17:06,160 that's really good point so you know 459 00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,679 there's a number of ways we could tackle 460 00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:09,679 this study you have a number of points 461 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:12,559 that you've piled up i do too but i 462 00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:14,720 don't want to bury the lead 463 00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:17,280 and i think the lead here is that when 464 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:19,760 you analyze the numbers 465 00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:23,280 this study actually proves the exact 466 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:24,480 opposite 467 00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:26,160 of what it claims 468 00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:29,200 because this study is confirmation of 469 00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:31,039 the null hypothesis 470 00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:33,600 that is that there's no evidence that 471 00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:36,320 masks work when you move them into the 472 00:17:40,470 --> 00:17:38,080 general population 473 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,480 and that's kind of my working hypothesis 474 00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:42,640 which we'll kind of hash out later is 475 00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:43,360 that 476 00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:46,000 i think the hype on this study is kind 477 00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:47,520 of the head fake 478 00:17:52,150 --> 00:17:49,440 because if you really 479 00:17:55,669 --> 00:17:52,160 work out all the numbers and you say wow 480 00:17:57,270 --> 00:17:55,679 this is they did do a huge study 481 00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:57,280 but the fact is 482 00:18:02,549 --> 00:17:59,760 they got a null result and that's a 483 00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:02,559 replication in a sense of all the other 484 00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:05,679 null results and the last thing you want 485 00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:08,160 is for that to get out so the best way 486 00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:10,160 to go out there is lead out with a big 487 00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:12,880 lie that oh my god this is the best 488 00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:15,600 study ever andy i think you had a 489 00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:17,679 comment i've pulled the numbers that i 490 00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:19,840 want to talk about up on the screen 491 00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:21,919 but what did you want to say before we 492 00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:23,360 dive into this 493 00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:25,520 what i want to say is that the way the 494 00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:27,520 study is written is deceptive on its 495 00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:28,640 face 496 00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:30,080 it's really clear that they're 497 00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:32,880 intentionally disguising the actual 498 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:35,039 findings of the study and the meaning of 499 00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:37,840 it they are not making any comparisons 500 00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:40,000 to studies that come to different 501 00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:41,200 conclusions 502 00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:42,720 like for instance the many studies 503 00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:44,799 you're talking about that show that mask 504 00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,840 wearing has no positive benefit and i 505 00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:49,360 know about those studies and i've seen 506 00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:52,080 them so why they are left out of this 507 00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,000 makes no sense to me because they would 508 00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:56,480 if they have this robust result you 509 00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:58,320 would expect them to say 510 00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:00,960 look at this all these studies x y and z 511 00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:02,400 show or 512 00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:04,080 claim that 513 00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:06,240 masks aren't affected but we have proven 514 00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:07,840 them wrong and this is how we've proven 515 00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:10,160 them wrong nowhere do they address this 516 00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:12,000 and that should have been right up front 517 00:19:15,510 --> 00:19:13,919 and it i it's nowhere i i'm really 518 00:19:16,630 --> 00:19:15,520 disappointed by that but then when it 519 00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:16,640 comes to the numbers and you keep 520 00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,240 talking about this huge study they get 521 00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:20,799 around 350 000 people in the study but 522 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:22,320 when i look at the actual number of 523 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,840 people who are relevant to their 524 00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:25,200 conclusions 525 00:19:28,390 --> 00:19:27,280 it's a small number relative to these 526 00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,400 bigger numbers that they're throwing 527 00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:30,720 around and every single opportunity they 528 00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:32,400 use the bigger numbers whenever they can 529 00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:33,600 even though they're not directly 530 00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:35,120 relevant to what they're talking about 531 00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:37,600 so that also bothers me anyway go on no 532 00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:39,520 everything you're saying is great so 533 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:41,039 what i want to do next for people who 534 00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:43,760 are listening and aren't watching this 535 00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:46,160 i'm referencing now right out of the 536 00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:48,160 study you can get this link right from 537 00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:50,240 the washington post and by the way you 538 00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:53,120 can also get a whole hashing out of this 539 00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:55,600 that we did on the skeptical forum i 540 00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:57,200 kind of put up this 541 00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:59,280 post saying hey help me out with this 542 00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:01,200 upcoming interview and it was really 543 00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:03,360 great i got a lot of posts 544 00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:05,200 not a lot of them i agreed with but 545 00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:06,559 definitely 546 00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:09,520 it helped the whole process because 547 00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,280 it's hard to figure this stuff out 548 00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:13,520 everyone makes mistakes here there just 549 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:14,799 like we're going to point out that the 550 00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:16,240 scientists in this case made some 551 00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:18,000 mistakes but 552 00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:19,840 the numbers can get a little bit 553 00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:21,919 confusing but what i wanted to point out 554 00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:24,640 here is figure one is right out of the 555 00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:26,480 study and this is the headline big 556 00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:29,200 graphic so again they had about 340 000 557 00:20:35,909 --> 00:20:33,039 people they had 146 000 in the control 558 00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:35,919 group and they had about 160 000 559 00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:38,320 in the intervention group intervention 560 00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:40,159 group are people that they went and they 561 00:20:44,470 --> 00:20:41,840 pestered the crap out of them to wear 562 00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:44,480 this mask for the 10 weeks and here is 563 00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:46,400 the result that they got 564 00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:48,960 check this out people in the control 565 00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:51,120 group at the end of the day and we'll 566 00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:53,760 tell you how they got to this but they 567 00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:57,440 figure out that 0.76 568 00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:00,320 of their control group had covid the 569 00:21:07,510 --> 00:21:03,039 group that they pestered the heck out of 570 00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:07,520 that group had a covid rate of 0.69 571 00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,000 and they said like andy just pointed out 572 00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:12,720 hey guys let's get all excited that's a 573 00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:17,440 relative 9.3 reduction in kovid multiply 574 00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:19,679 that by all the people in the world 575 00:21:23,669 --> 00:21:21,440 multiply that by all the weeks in the 576 00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:23,679 year multiply that if we got people to 577 00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:25,760 double their mass rate all of which you 578 00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:28,240 can't do is total science but 579 00:21:33,669 --> 00:21:31,200 nonetheless the the real fatal flaw the 580 00:21:36,149 --> 00:21:33,679 real junk science part of this 581 00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:36,159 is in the numbers themselves here's the 582 00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,760 little story i want to share with people 583 00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:39,039 andy and then i want you to really take 584 00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:40,559 over on this 585 00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:41,840 here's another way to think of this 586 00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:42,799 study 587 00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:46,320 let's say i had a magic pendant 588 00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,320 a little magic pendant with a crystal 589 00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:49,919 and a little leather strap on it and i 590 00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,120 said andy if you wear this magic pendant 591 00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,679 you won't get covered and then i did my 592 00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:57,360 big study and i came out and i proved it 593 00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:59,520 guys i proved it and you came back and 594 00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,360 said okay well tell me tell me how you 595 00:22:05,350 --> 00:22:03,120 proved it and i said well we took a 596 00:22:07,270 --> 00:22:05,360 thousand people and you know how many of 597 00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:07,280 them had coveted at the end of it 598 00:22:13,430 --> 00:22:08,640 eight 599 00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:13,440 seven six percent rounded up 600 00:22:17,430 --> 00:22:15,280 because it's seven point six people were 601 00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,440 rounded up to eight and i'll say eight 602 00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:19,679 people had coveted and then you go okay 603 00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:21,760 well how many people in your 604 00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:23,919 intervention group the people who 605 00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:25,760 actually wore the pendant so then andy 606 00:22:30,149 --> 00:22:27,840 if you were to say well how many people 607 00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:30,159 that actually wore the pendant 608 00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:32,960 got coved and i'd say oh yeah 609 00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:34,320 seven 610 00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:37,679 pendant 611 00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:41,039 got coved and you'd go wait a minute you 612 00:22:45,190 --> 00:22:42,960 said the control group eight out of a 613 00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:45,200 thousand had covid and in the 614 00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:46,799 intervention the people who wear their 615 00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:49,200 magic pendant only seven out of a 616 00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:51,679 thousand had covet you'd go that's not a 617 00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:54,159 very convincing result and especially if 618 00:22:58,390 --> 00:22:56,559 you pressed me and said well how did you 619 00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:58,400 even measure whether they were wearing 620 00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:00,559 the pendant or not how did you measure 621 00:23:04,630 --> 00:23:03,200 whether they had coveted at the end 622 00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:04,640 what kind of test did you do is it 623 00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:06,559 possible that you made any mistake in 624 00:23:12,390 --> 00:23:09,120 terms of testing those thousand people 625 00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:12,400 all those things would cast doubt on how 626 00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:15,039 accurate it was particularly when my end 627 00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:18,240 result is that this is the effect the 628 00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,280 effect is a reduction from 629 00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:22,080 0.76 630 00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:24,240 to 0.69 631 00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:27,520 it is minuscule anyone with common sense 632 00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,559 would tell you that is not a significant 633 00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,720 difference just because you wore the 634 00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:34,559 magic pendant 635 00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:37,120 maybe that's a stupid example but that's 636 00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,520 what really brought it home to me is how 637 00:23:44,630 --> 00:23:41,440 they're totally 638 00:23:46,630 --> 00:23:44,640 playing with these numbers in order to 639 00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,640 create the illusion that they've done 640 00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:48,480 something when in fact they've really 641 00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:51,279 done the opposite they've confirmed that 642 00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:53,679 this is a null result what do you think 643 00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:55,039 editor 644 00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:57,360 well yeah and i'm sitting here thinking 645 00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:00,080 uh you're taking all my thunder here 646 00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:02,159 because all the stuff you say is right i 647 00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,640 look at that and frankly i think it's 648 00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:07,279 extremely dishonest for them to call 649 00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:10,080 that a 9.3 relative reduction 650 00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,400 in a in a scientific paper that's going 651 00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:14,480 into a scientific journal you would say 652 00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,320 what the reduction is not the relative 653 00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:18,960 reduction and rel you know if you wanted 654 00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:22,080 to make that a 99 relative reduction you 655 00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:23,760 could do that just reduce those numbers 656 00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:27,840 enough you know like 0.001 to 0.0001 657 00:24:31,350 --> 00:24:29,840 and you could have this incredible 658 00:24:32,950 --> 00:24:31,360 relative reduction it would be totally 659 00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:32,960 meaningless because the numbers are so 660 00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:35,520 small just as in this case and in this 661 00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:36,960 and also because of the number of people 662 00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:38,480 involved it's uh 663 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:40,799 you actually can do that so 664 00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:43,360 when i look at the paper i'm seeing 665 00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:45,279 two things that bother me i mean you're 666 00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,799 focusing on the number and i think you 667 00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:48,640 should because it is an important uh 668 00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:49,760 defect 669 00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:51,039 but the other thing is the way they 670 00:24:55,750 --> 00:24:53,360 report it is very dishonest i would say 671 00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:55,760 it's manifestly dishonest meaningfully 672 00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:58,559 dishonest they've changed the meaning of 673 00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:01,200 what they did how they did it and what 674 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:02,400 it means 675 00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:05,760 all of those things are are reasons to 676 00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:08,000 not approve this for publication if i 677 00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,799 was reviewing this paper for a journal i 678 00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:12,400 would not want to approve it just on 679 00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:15,360 that basis alone even even that one line 680 00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:16,799 that you just showed there that image 681 00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,159 the graphic where it says relative 682 00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:20,000 reduction right there that word relative 683 00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:21,600 they take that out and replace it with 684 00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:23,760 the absolute reduction or it doesn't get 685 00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:27,360 published but this this uh article is 686 00:25:32,230 --> 00:25:29,600 full of stuff like that throughout from 687 00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:32,240 from front to back the fact that they 688 00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:34,080 they don't bother mentioning uh 689 00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:35,520 competing theories 690 00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:37,760 that's a big problem for me i don't like 691 00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:39,840 how they um i forget where it is but 692 00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,320 there's a one of these places where they 693 00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:44,799 they drastically increase the numbers 694 00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:47,279 that are affected by this provided their 695 00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:49,440 conjecture is true but 696 00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,880 that's provided their conjecture is true 697 00:25:53,669 --> 00:25:52,159 which is not something i'm willing to 698 00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:53,679 grant is the case and they give no 699 00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:55,760 justification for it um 700 00:25:58,549 --> 00:25:56,720 you know what i'm talking about they 701 00:26:00,070 --> 00:25:58,559 have a number 2.5 in there where they 702 00:26:02,789 --> 00:26:00,080 they essentially multiply their results 703 00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:02,799 by 2.5 and say this is what the results 704 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:06,159 would be if this fancy pants invented uh 705 00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,600 theory of ours is correct and i'm like 706 00:26:12,149 --> 00:26:09,200 well i'll prove that first and then give 707 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,159 me the the 2.5 because otherwise 708 00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:14,640 it's interesting because where the 2.5 709 00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:16,080 comes from 710 00:26:20,230 --> 00:26:17,760 if we are going to talk a little bit 711 00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:20,240 about the the method that they use the 712 00:26:25,269 --> 00:26:22,480 protocols what they did is they they 713 00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:25,279 took this huge population in bangladesh 714 00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:26,240 which 715 00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:29,279 i have to say once once i got over the 716 00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:32,480 point of saying this is all concocted 717 00:26:37,029 --> 00:26:34,960 it's junk science and it's intentionally 718 00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:37,039 junk science you start questioning the 719 00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:40,400 whole thing one why do you need 340 000 720 00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:41,600 people 721 00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:43,200 i suspect that one of the reasons you 722 00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:46,080 need 340 000 people is 723 00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:48,240 what you just alluded to and i want you 724 00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:49,760 to talk more about that from your 725 00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,080 experience is when you have a really 726 00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:54,960 large population it's kind of easier to 727 00:26:59,830 --> 00:26:57,919 fudge the stats at the end of the day 728 00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:59,840 i mean if you had one tenth of this if 729 00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:00,720 you had 730 00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:03,600 40 000 people you'd still have a very 731 00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,520 significant study and you'd have a much 732 00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:07,840 more manageable study right 733 00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:10,159 okay the the thing that bugs me about 734 00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:12,080 this is that i'm not even convinced that 735 00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:14,880 they're that 340 000 number refers to 736 00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:17,440 genuine participants in the sense that 737 00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:19,600 they are relevant to the claims that 738 00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:22,640 they're making here yes they had 340 000 739 00:27:27,669 --> 00:27:24,880 people fill out a survey but they did 740 00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,679 not give 340 000 people blood tests to 741 00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:30,240 determine whether or not they had this 742 00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:33,120 the covet virus in them okay they only 743 00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,720 had something less than ten thousand 744 00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:36,640 nine thousand something uh if those 745 00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:38,399 people had that so what they're doing is 746 00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,320 they're testing for zero prevalence and 747 00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:42,720 their their whole conclusion is based on 748 00:27:46,310 --> 00:27:44,320 changes in the the amount of zero 749 00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:46,320 prevalence in one group versus another 750 00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:48,240 and they're saying it applies to 340 000 751 00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:49,760 people but they only gave the test to 9 752 00:27:53,190 --> 00:27:51,039 000 something 753 00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:53,200 if you read this study they do to go to 754 00:27:57,990 --> 00:27:55,600 great lengths to explain how they 755 00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:58,000 created this randomized group versus the 756 00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:59,679 control group and they really want to 757 00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:01,520 hype that up because that they did and 758 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:03,360 they probably did right and you know how 759 00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:05,440 do you get the profile of a village that 760 00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:07,440 matches up and all the rest of this 761 00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:10,000 all smoke screens smoke screen because 762 00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:11,520 as you said what they do at the end of 763 00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:13,520 the day is then they go and they pester 764 00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:15,279 the crap out of these people they show 765 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:16,799 videos of their sports heroes in 766 00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:19,360 bangladesh and politicians in bangladesh 767 00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:21,440 saying wear the mask wear the mask and 768 00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:23,120 then they go out and they have their 769 00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:25,760 their little observers who they pay to 770 00:28:30,310 --> 00:28:27,840 go and observe people in the market 771 00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:30,320 whether they're wearing the mask they 772 00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:31,679 haven't then they say well we should 773 00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:33,279 observe them in the mosque too you know 774 00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:35,039 because mask wearing we already know 775 00:28:38,789 --> 00:28:36,960 that if if masks are effective at all 776 00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:38,799 they're effective where the 777 00:28:42,549 --> 00:28:40,480 where the virus is being spread not 778 00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:42,559 outdoors in the market right but leave 779 00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:45,200 all that aside again it just it just is 780 00:28:48,710 --> 00:28:46,799 a smoke screen here's what i wanted to 781 00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:48,720 get to at the end of the day what they 782 00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:51,360 do is they say okay time to tally up the 783 00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:54,320 results let's see who has covet so this 784 00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,559 is not an unreasonable way to do it it 785 00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:59,039 just has the high possibility of 786 00:29:03,269 --> 00:29:01,520 introducing air and that is that they 787 00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:03,279 call everybody up 788 00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:05,600 and they say hey that's 10 weeks 789 00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:07,440 remember you were doing this study how 790 00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:10,000 are you feeling do you got covid you got 791 00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:11,760 a flu got a cough they go through the 792 00:29:16,070 --> 00:29:14,240 symptoms and the person goes 793 00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:16,080 yeah i don't feel good today they say 794 00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:19,120 come on in for a blood test would you 795 00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:20,240 40 796 00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,159 both the control is pretty 797 00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,399 much the same both in the control group 798 00:29:28,389 --> 00:29:26,240 and in the intervention group the people 799 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:28,399 that they're bugging to wear the mask 40 800 00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:29,840 of them come in that's where they get 801 00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,679 the 2.5 right because 40 multiplied 2.5 802 00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:35,919 you'd get 100 but that's fake you can't 803 00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:40,240 do that all you know is that 40 of the 804 00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:42,000 people you called 805 00:29:45,029 --> 00:29:43,200 came in 806 00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:45,039 you don't know which 40 807 00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:46,399 you don't you don't this is a 808 00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:48,159 telemarketing thing 809 00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:49,760 you don't know if you have somebody 810 00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:52,000 calling him up who's really good at 811 00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:54,000 talking people it has the kind of 812 00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:56,159 motherly vibe and it says oh honey 813 00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:58,080 you'll sound really bad now you should 814 00:30:02,630 --> 00:30:00,480 come in and they get more people to come 815 00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:02,640 in than the other one there's all sorts 816 00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:04,799 of potential for human error because 817 00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,039 remember at the end of the day 818 00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,200 you got a difference of one out of a 819 00:30:13,669 --> 00:30:11,600 thousand is the difference if you lose a 820 00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:13,679 blood sample if you get the wrong person 821 00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:16,000 to come in if any of that changes you 822 00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:18,240 have a complete null result you don't 823 00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,320 even have this kind of fake no result 824 00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:22,559 that barely jumps over some bar i know 825 00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,720 you're dying to jump in here please do 826 00:30:27,909 --> 00:30:26,640 oh i absolutely am but i wanted to get 827 00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:27,919 back to this two and a half times 828 00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:29,440 because i'm going to read it right off 829 00:30:33,269 --> 00:30:30,640 the article 830 00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:33,279 their justification is quote if 831 00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:35,039 non-consenters have similar serial 832 00:30:39,029 --> 00:30:37,120 prevalence to consenters and i'm 833 00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:39,039 thinking that is a completely 834 00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:41,440 unjustifiable assumption or even 835 00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:44,000 conjecture and the reason apart from the 836 00:30:48,350 --> 00:30:45,520 the reasons you gave which i think are 837 00:30:50,549 --> 00:30:48,360 also valid it seems to me that the 838 00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:50,559 non-consenting group is going to be 839 00:30:53,430 --> 00:30:51,760 meaningfully different from the 840 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:53,440 consenting group otherwise they would 841 00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:54,720 have consented 842 00:30:59,190 --> 00:30:56,880 therefore i wouldn't want to make any 843 00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:59,200 assumptions about them being similar to 844 00:31:02,630 --> 00:31:00,960 a group that they have just proven 845 00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:02,640 they're dissimilar from 846 00:31:07,509 --> 00:31:05,120 that doesn't make any sense to me 847 00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,519 especially when you keep tying it back 848 00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:09,600 to the numbers and that's what i think 849 00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:11,440 it took me a long time to work through 850 00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:13,360 this study and think about it and mull 851 00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:15,760 it over but i think it's such a great 852 00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:19,200 window into the whole plandemic thing 853 00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:21,919 and how the whether this is a program or 854 00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:24,480 not is really the question we're trying 855 00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:26,399 to we've been trying to answer all along 856 00:31:32,549 --> 00:31:29,440 with kovid and i think the masks are an 857 00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:32,559 interesting window into that question 858 00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:34,240 begin and i think this study in 859 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:36,960 particular kind of shows the method so i 860 00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:38,640 totally agree with what you're saying 861 00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:41,360 but i would just bring it back to 862 00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:43,200 one out of a thousand was your 863 00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:45,360 difference so when you talk about the 864 00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:47,679 potential for a mistake being made and 865 00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:49,679 what you just said remember the 866 00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:52,559 magnitude of the mistake you need one 867 00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:55,440 out of a thousand is their complete 868 00:32:00,310 --> 00:31:57,919 extent of the difference that they 869 00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:00,320 report they also report that hey some of 870 00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:02,080 the blood samples we did you know they 871 00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:03,360 didn't work you know they didn't have 872 00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:06,080 the right blood or the the label the 873 00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:08,399 barcode label on it got messed up they 874 00:32:13,110 --> 00:32:10,640 admit you know which is understandable 875 00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:13,120 that this thing wasn't perfect tie it 876 00:32:18,310 --> 00:32:14,399 back though folks 877 00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:18,320 one out of a thousand is the difference 878 00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,240 it's terrible but you know one other 879 00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:22,000 thing too that i want to i want to get 880 00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:23,360 at and i know you want to stick with 881 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:24,480 actually i'll stick with the numbers 882 00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:26,320 just for now but you were talking about 883 00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:28,320 significance levels that point zero four 884 00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:30,000 two numbers something like that 885 00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:31,840 um i just wanna illustrate what that 886 00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:34,480 means a point zero five level of 887 00:32:38,549 --> 00:32:36,559 significance number one is not 888 00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:38,559 considered valid in a lot of situations 889 00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:40,159 depending on what it is you're testing 890 00:32:44,710 --> 00:32:42,640 but what it amounts to is a one in 20 891 00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:44,720 chance that it's random okay that's what 892 00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,760 it means so 0.04 not much different from 893 00:32:51,190 --> 00:32:49,919 that that's like a one in 21 chance 894 00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:51,200 something like that that this is 895 00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,240 happening randomly okay and quite 896 00:32:57,509 --> 00:32:55,679 frankly 897 00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:57,519 that's a high chance that it's happening 898 00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:59,760 randomly when you're looking at 340 000 899 00:33:03,909 --> 00:33:01,200 people okay 900 00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:03,919 i would want a much different value with 901 00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:06,159 a population size that large 902 00:33:09,509 --> 00:33:07,840 if they're going to claim significance 903 00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:09,519 and then when they're claiming relative 904 00:33:14,230 --> 00:33:10,880 significance 905 00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:14,240 this is like saying i am relatively 906 00:33:16,950 --> 00:33:15,679 taller than 907 00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:16,960 my daughter 908 00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:19,840 in comparison to a tyrannosaurus rex and 909 00:33:23,269 --> 00:33:21,519 an elephant okay 910 00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:23,279 we're already very close just because 911 00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:25,279 we're the same species this is something 912 00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:27,200 you know you want to know absolutely is 913 00:33:31,269 --> 00:33:29,039 this actually changing the the effect 914 00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,279 and it's not and on top of everything 915 00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:33,360 else on top of the fact that i think 916 00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:34,640 they're dishonestly reporting the 917 00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:36,880 results i think their research 918 00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:40,080 objectives are dishonest also because 919 00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:42,640 they're saying we want to check out what 920 00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,360 kind of methods are available to 921 00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,279 encourage people to wear masks which 922 00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:49,679 they assume is the good thing to do and 923 00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:50,960 they start talking about the kind of 924 00:33:53,590 --> 00:33:52,000 methods you know we're going to get 925 00:33:55,110 --> 00:33:53,600 people in mosques to ask the people to 926 00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:55,120 do it we'll pay off their village elders 927 00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:57,600 the equivalent of 6 000 us dollars if if 928 00:34:02,310 --> 00:33:59,600 they get their people to up to a certain 929 00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:02,320 level of mask wearing etc or the 930 00:34:06,310 --> 00:34:04,640 alternative they say law enforcement and 931 00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:06,320 i'm thinking okay so you're basically 932 00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:08,399 telling these guys and you're really 933 00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:11,280 pushing hard on this message wear them 934 00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:13,679 or we'll force you to wear them okay so 935 00:34:16,950 --> 00:34:15,520 do it nicely or maybe we'll punch you in 936 00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:16,960 the face first and stick it on you while 937 00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,960 you're unconscious that's kind of how 938 00:34:22,629 --> 00:34:20,399 i'm reading this because they were 939 00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,639 really pushing these guys hard and quite 940 00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:24,800 frankly that destroys 941 00:34:28,629 --> 00:34:27,280 any kind of neutral neutral viewpoint 942 00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:28,639 that these guys might have pretended to 943 00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:30,560 have had when they did this they were 944 00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:32,320 they were really coercing the subjects a 945 00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:34,720 lot and that as far as i'm concerned is 946 00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:37,200 a highly unnatural condition that they 947 00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:39,040 cannot extrapolate to a general 948 00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,399 population 949 00:34:43,109 --> 00:34:41,760 just my impression 950 00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:43,119 well they do even worse than 951 00:34:47,589 --> 00:34:45,839 extrapolated at one point as we played 952 00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,599 in the video 953 00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:49,200 they said well what if we could double 954 00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:50,000 it 955 00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:52,480 we got an increase of 35 percent mask 956 00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:54,960 wearing what if we get to get 75 percent 957 00:34:59,190 --> 00:34:57,040 we would get even a higher rate which 958 00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:59,200 again is a complete that your data 959 00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:01,200 doesn't show any of that but to your 960 00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:04,000 point there's all these problems that 961 00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,560 come up both in enforcing the mask 962 00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:08,480 wearing counting the mask wearing and 963 00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:09,760 all the rest of that 964 00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:12,480 but i just am going to keep bringing it 965 00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:14,160 back to the numbers 966 00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:16,800 because the headline to me is 967 00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:19,440 big lie and when i say big lie mean it's 968 00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:22,000 kind of well known in propaganda is the 969 00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:24,960 best way to hide a lie is to make it a 970 00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:27,200 big lie because little lies are liable 971 00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:29,200 to be exposed if they would have just 972 00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:31,680 tried to bury this study and not put it 973 00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:34,000 out and someone stumbled across it and 974 00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:35,280 said hey 975 00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:37,760 here's another null result stack it 976 00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:40,320 alongside the the danish study that just 977 00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:42,320 came out randomized control study that 978 00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:44,720 shows no result stack it along with all 979 00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:47,200 the epidemiological data which we should 980 00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:50,000 talk about right because we have we've 981 00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:52,800 kind of amassed a lot of data on mask 982 00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:55,040 wearing one we go into a state and one 983 00:35:58,310 --> 00:35:56,800 county enforces it and the other county 984 00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:58,320 does it and we look at the results at 985 00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,160 the end and there's no difference we go 986 00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:01,920 from state to state they do it there's 987 00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:04,160 no difference and that's difficult to 988 00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:06,400 compare it has all kinds of problems 989 00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:08,640 that's why we would really would want a 990 00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:10,240 randomized control trial where they 991 00:36:13,150 --> 00:36:12,000 really do kind of control that but we 992 00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:13,160 can't totally ignore that 993 00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:15,520 epidemiological data but here what we 994 00:36:20,470 --> 00:36:17,440 have is confirmation 995 00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:20,480 further confirmation that mask wearing 996 00:36:25,510 --> 00:36:23,440 doesn't work in the general population i 997 00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:25,520 think what they've done is they've hyped 998 00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:26,640 it up 999 00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:29,040 in order to bury it so the debate 1000 00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:31,839 becomes well you know did they really do 1001 00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:33,599 it you know did they do this right who 1002 00:36:38,150 --> 00:36:35,520 did they force to do it when what 1003 00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:38,160 they're really the real story is 1004 00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:40,640 another null result more data that it 1005 00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:42,160 that it doesn't work what do you think 1006 00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:44,320 of the big lie theory 1007 00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:46,240 oh i think it's absolutely right and 1008 00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:47,440 actually it reminds me of something the 1009 00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,400 cdc did in a study of pregnant women 1010 00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,560 taking the vaccine because what they did 1011 00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,720 there and i'm i'm just doing this for 1012 00:36:57,589 --> 00:36:55,920 memory so i'm not going to give 1013 00:37:00,230 --> 00:36:57,599 approximate numbers but 1014 00:37:01,430 --> 00:37:00,240 they did a study of about 900 pregnant 1015 00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:01,440 women i believe it was slightly more 1016 00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:02,480 than that but it was less than a 1017 00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:03,520 thousand 1018 00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:05,440 and they said their results in their 1019 00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,240 conclusions showed that the risk to 1020 00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:10,880 pregnant women of taking the vaccine was 1021 00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:12,880 in line with the normal risk of just 1022 00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:15,599 being pregnant and having a miscarriage 1023 00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:17,920 and that was based on 900 women with a 1024 00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:20,000 12 percent miscarriage rate which they 1025 00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:21,440 considered normal personally i think 1026 00:37:25,829 --> 00:37:23,280 that's shocking shockingly high i had no 1027 00:37:27,670 --> 00:37:25,839 idea that 12 would be considered normal 1028 00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:27,680 but let's assume that they're telling 1029 00:37:31,190 --> 00:37:28,800 the truth there and it really is 1030 00:37:33,430 --> 00:37:31,200 considered normal what they leave out is 1031 00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:33,440 in the very same article just like this 1032 00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:34,960 one they've got some numbers that 1033 00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:36,560 disagree with what they just said but 1034 00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:38,160 they don't highlight it so if you don't 1035 00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,640 pay attention you don't see it so within 1036 00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,720 that group of 900 women they've got it 1037 00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:44,880 broken down into trimesters and numbers 1038 00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:47,040 of weeks that they're pregnant right 1039 00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:49,760 so if you look at the women who were 20 1040 00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,560 weeks pregnant 82 percent of them had 1041 00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:54,640 miscarriages if you look at the women 1042 00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:57,200 who were 16 weeks pregnant or less it 1043 00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:00,720 was 92 percent miscarriages okay those 1044 00:38:06,069 --> 00:38:03,839 are extremely high rates but by blending 1045 00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:06,079 those values in with the remaining 1046 00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:08,480 women in that study who did not have 1047 00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:10,320 miscarriages like basically everybody 1048 00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:11,839 over 20 weeks 1049 00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:13,520 and they get to say it's only a 12 1050 00:38:17,990 --> 00:38:15,599 percent rate and everybody's safe 1051 00:38:20,069 --> 00:38:18,000 but what their data is actually saying 1052 00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:20,079 is if you're in your first 20 weeks you 1053 00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:23,040 are a very high risk group and it is not 1054 00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:25,440 safe for you if you're in your last 20 1055 00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:26,320 weeks 1056 00:38:31,510 --> 00:38:28,960 nope first it's the it's the women who 1057 00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:31,520 are in the first 20 weeks who are most 1058 00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,400 at risk of losing their baby not last 1059 00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:36,720 okay okay got it got it 1060 00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:38,800 so the thing is it's not just simply 1061 00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:40,880 disingenuous this isn't the simple error 1062 00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:43,440 this is something that um they had to 1063 00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:44,560 know because the numbers are sitting 1064 00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,599 right there 1065 00:38:49,670 --> 00:38:48,000 by covering it up the way they did by 1066 00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:49,680 masking it in their conclusions and 1067 00:38:53,589 --> 00:38:50,880 discussion 1068 00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:53,599 they were able to get out the message to 1069 00:38:57,589 --> 00:38:55,920 pregnant women no matter how far along 1070 00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:57,599 they were that this is safe and you 1071 00:39:01,990 --> 00:38:59,680 should go ahead and get the vaccine that 1072 00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:02,000 message can lead to them getting having 1073 00:39:05,589 --> 00:39:03,520 miscarriages and i think this is 1074 00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:05,599 something that is highly unethical on 1075 00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,359 the part of the cdc i'm shocked that 1076 00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:09,119 they did it and i'm shocked that they 1077 00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:10,560 got away with it actually i'm really 1078 00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:12,240 amazed that the media let them get away 1079 00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:13,599 with it because the information's just 1080 00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:15,920 sitting right there and what that means 1081 00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:19,040 to me is either the media is absolutely 1082 00:39:22,390 --> 00:39:20,960 lazy as all get out and they just don't 1083 00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:22,400 know how to read or something so they 1084 00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:23,760 don't bother looking 1085 00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:25,680 or they're complicit in this and i 1086 00:39:29,349 --> 00:39:27,359 actually think it's more likely a 1087 00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,359 combination of the two i think they 1088 00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:31,359 they will accept the top line reading of 1089 00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:32,640 an article that they're told by the 1090 00:39:37,670 --> 00:39:35,280 producers to read but i also think that 1091 00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:37,680 um that they seem to want to promote 1092 00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:38,880 this stuff because that's what they're 1093 00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:40,880 actually doing it's really shocking to 1094 00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:42,720 see this and it's it's widespread i just 1095 00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:43,920 wrote an article about this just a 1096 00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:46,079 couple days ago called laundering lies 1097 00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:47,760 uh for red voice media and it's all 1098 00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:48,960 about how 1099 00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:52,240 um people are lying to 1100 00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:54,160 more or less honest people but they're 1101 00:39:57,910 --> 00:39:55,680 doing in such a convincing way these 1102 00:39:59,670 --> 00:39:57,920 honest people believe the lie 1103 00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:59,680 and then spread it widely to other 1104 00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:01,520 people who readily accept it because the 1105 00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:03,680 people who are talking to them that are 1106 00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:05,359 known to be honest people and they 1107 00:40:08,069 --> 00:40:06,720 honestly believe the things so they're 1108 00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:08,079 taking a lie 1109 00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:09,839 from corrupt individuals who are doing 1110 00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:11,839 it on purpose and passing it off into 1111 00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:12,880 the hands of other people who are 1112 00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:14,480 basically cleaning it because they 1113 00:40:18,630 --> 00:40:16,560 themselves are honest and innocent in 1114 00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:18,640 all this and they become victims because 1115 00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:20,560 then what happens is they act on these 1116 00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,280 lies they change their habits they 1117 00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,440 change their social relationships and so 1118 00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,960 on and it's destructive to people around 1119 00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:28,720 them and it's destructive to themselves 1120 00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:30,400 so for instance if you're lying about 1121 00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:32,240 whether or not masks are efficacious and 1122 00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:33,520 you're telling people to wear these and 1123 00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:34,800 they're always useful and everyone 1124 00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:36,160 should do it 1125 00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:39,119 but in fact they're either useless or 1126 00:40:42,069 --> 00:40:40,960 they have a harmful effect 1127 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:42,079 then what you're doing is you're 1128 00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:43,760 promoting something that has a 1129 00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:45,520 consequence it's the exact opposite of 1130 00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:46,800 what your intentions are and you're 1131 00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:48,400 doing it because you've been persuaded 1132 00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:50,160 to do it by people who have ill 1133 00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:51,680 intentions that's how it looks to me 1134 00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:52,800 anyway 1135 00:40:56,390 --> 00:40:54,960 wow that's a stunning example you'll 1136 00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:56,400 have to send me that and i'll see if i 1137 00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:58,000 can incorporate it 1138 00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:00,000 into this uh end of the video part of 1139 00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:01,760 this and i'll provide 1140 00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:03,440 for people who do it 1141 00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:06,480 and i i stumbled across a lie 1142 00:41:11,589 --> 00:41:09,599 not of that proportion but i think it 1143 00:41:14,230 --> 00:41:11,599 fits in beautifully with what you're 1144 00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:14,240 just saying and it was that this is what 1145 00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:16,000 one of the 1146 00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:19,520 guys 1147 00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:22,640 ahmed mubarak i'm not totally sure on 1148 00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,319 that name but hey i invited them on 1149 00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,800 skeptical i invited i should point out 1150 00:41:31,270 --> 00:41:28,400 remind me i invited all these people on 1151 00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:31,280 skeptico i invited jason i invited 1152 00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,760 ashley multiple times to come on 1153 00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:35,760 skeptico i did get one response from 1154 00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:36,720 jason 1155 00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,640 saying after i pestered a bunch of times 1156 00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:41,280 saying oh i'm too busy i can't do it now 1157 00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,880 which speaks back to your point no 1158 00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:44,880 scientific debate on this so it's not 1159 00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:46,720 just little old me that they're blowing 1160 00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:49,680 off they're not they're not engaging in 1161 00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,760 any dialogue on this they're if they can 1162 00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:53,920 go on and do kind of press release 1163 00:41:59,589 --> 00:41:56,560 readings on the media they'll do that 1164 00:42:02,630 --> 00:41:59,599 but no engagement with with any of this 1165 00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:02,640 stuff but here's the quote from ahmed 1166 00:42:07,349 --> 00:42:05,520 this is so next level creepy i want to 1167 00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:07,359 process it a little bit because it gets 1168 00:42:11,190 --> 00:42:09,760 to this bigger issue here's what he 1169 00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:11,200 wrote in i think this is in the 1170 00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,720 washington post but you can find it 1171 00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:14,800 we'll have the exact quote in there 1172 00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:17,200 he says most importantly as soon as the 1173 00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:20,400 data began to suggest that masking had 1174 00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:22,800 benefits months before we drafted and 1175 00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:25,599 released our study we began to talk to 1176 00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:27,839 the world health organization 1177 00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:30,720 the bill and melinda gates foundation 1178 00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:33,520 and the world bank and dozens of other 1179 00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:36,319 governmental and non-governmental groups 1180 00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:38,079 about scaling up 1181 00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:40,720 so others would benefit 1182 00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:44,160 here's the real beauty of this lie 1183 00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:45,359 remember 1184 00:42:51,910 --> 00:42:49,440 one in a thousand was the difference 1185 00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:51,920 this is clearly a lie 1186 00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:54,160 there's no way the data came in if you 1187 00:42:58,950 --> 00:42:56,480 actually run the numbers they wound up 1188 00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:58,960 with slightly more 1189 00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:00,800 covet cases 1190 00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:03,280 in their intervention group than in 1191 00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,880 their control group because their 1192 00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:07,040 population sizes were a little bit off 1193 00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:10,319 and they had to adjust it but at no time 1194 00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:13,280 at no time could have ahmed observed any 1195 00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:16,400 kind of significant surge in mass 1196 00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:19,839 effectiveness because it was never ever 1197 00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:22,000 ever there and we know that because 1198 00:43:26,950 --> 00:43:24,160 that's what the results say 1199 00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:26,960 so how can this be anything other than a 1200 00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:28,400 complete 1201 00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,760 lie 1202 00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:30,880 yeah well actually i want to say 1203 00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,000 something about what you just said 1204 00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:33,839 because i think that population size 1205 00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:35,920 difference is important because 1206 00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:37,520 they mention that in the article they 1207 00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:39,599 say you know this is the population size 1208 00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:41,200 of one group this is the population size 1209 00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:42,800 of the other group and then they say but 1210 00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:44,640 the difference is negligible so we can 1211 00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,640 basically ignore that but then when they 1212 00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:48,560 get to this incredibly tiny result that 1213 00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:50,800 they have that's they they're going to 1214 00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:52,560 magnify by turning it into a relative 1215 00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:54,400 measurement and making it seem like it's 1216 00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:55,760 much bigger than it is so i'm thinking 1217 00:43:58,950 --> 00:43:56,960 you know if you can just discard 1218 00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:58,960 thousands of people extra in one group 1219 00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:01,599 over the other you should be doing 1220 00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,200 giving the other 1221 00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:04,960 number the same treatment basically and 1222 00:44:08,150 --> 00:44:06,319 saying you know what this is too small 1223 00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:08,160 to really worry about that's a great 1224 00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:10,160 point because folks if you want to go in 1225 00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:11,680 there and dig into the numbers and work 1226 00:44:16,309 --> 00:44:13,680 the numbers backwards because 1227 00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:16,319 they're kind of very sketch on the 1228 00:44:20,150 --> 00:44:18,720 numbers too they don't always add up but 1229 00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,160 for the most part they do add up and 1230 00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:22,720 what they do give you in the study is 1231 00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:25,119 the total number of tests that they did 1232 00:44:29,589 --> 00:44:27,599 covet tests control group intervention 1233 00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:29,599 group and they give you the percentage 1234 00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:31,920 of people who tested positive and from 1235 00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:33,440 that they don't give you the actual 1236 00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:34,960 numbers they never give you the case and 1237 00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,560 was a number of cases because the number 1238 00:44:40,550 --> 00:44:38,480 of cases would just startle you it'd be 1239 00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:40,560 this one in a thousand you'd go what in 1240 00:44:43,349 --> 00:44:41,839 a thousand what are you guys talking 1241 00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:43,359 about this could not possibly be 1242 00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:45,440 significant but they bury it there but 1243 00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,440 if you work backwards to support your 1244 00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,200 point andy 1245 00:44:54,710 --> 00:44:51,359 again work those numbers backwards and 1246 00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:54,720 there's actually more coveted cases 1247 00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:56,400 in the intervention group that is people 1248 00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:58,720 who wore masks they actually counted 1249 00:45:03,109 --> 00:45:01,680 more coveted cases in that group 1250 00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:03,119 than they did in their control group 1251 00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:05,599 people who didn't wear masks now 1252 00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,760 as you just said they can kind of say 1253 00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:08,880 well there's a little bit of a 1254 00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:11,520 population size there so we'll adjust it 1255 00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:13,920 and then you can get this very tiny tiny 1256 00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:16,160 little difference that they pump up but 1257 00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:18,880 fake fake fake junk science all the way 1258 00:45:23,109 --> 00:45:21,280 and i would suggest a big lie 1259 00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:23,119 yeah well one thing about that that's 1260 00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:25,760 important too is that the difference in 1261 00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:27,920 population size between the two groups 1262 00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:29,520 is greater than the percentage 1263 00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:31,119 difference between the two numbers that 1264 00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:34,240 they extract their 9.3 relative uh 1265 00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:37,440 improvement number from okay so 1266 00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:39,520 that also is important because if 1267 00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:41,119 they're ignoring let's just say one 1268 00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:43,680 percent over here they need to ignore 1269 00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:45,359 everything under one percent over there 1270 00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:47,839 because they're connected okay 1271 00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:50,400 um and i'll tell you when i was doing uh 1272 00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:52,400 my study on death streams with all this 1273 00:45:56,550 --> 00:45:53,920 help from daryl them which i really 1274 00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:56,560 appreciated you know i i found things 1275 00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:59,040 that didn't really match my hypothesis 1276 00:46:02,069 --> 00:46:00,400 very well but it didn't make me 1277 00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:02,079 dishonest about it it didn't make me 1278 00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,560 just discard them from the from the pile 1279 00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,560 and not report them or to report them 1280 00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:08,079 differently from i just recorded them 1281 00:46:13,349 --> 00:46:10,720 exactly as they were it's like this one 1282 00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:13,359 is an outlier okay you know i've got all 1283 00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:15,440 these other examples here and this is 1284 00:46:20,309 --> 00:46:17,359 the result i get when i when i run my 1285 00:46:21,670 --> 00:46:20,319 test and these guys are are different we 1286 00:46:23,589 --> 00:46:21,680 can talk about that separately but i'm 1287 00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,599 not going to leave them out and i am 1288 00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:24,960 going to draw attention to it that's the 1289 00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:26,480 thing when you have something like that 1290 00:46:30,069 --> 00:46:28,400 that deviates from everything else you 1291 00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:30,079 have to mention it otherwise you're not 1292 00:46:33,990 --> 00:46:31,920 honestly reporting results 1293 00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:34,000 these guys don't mention that stuff they 1294 00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:36,000 ignore it they just they just gloss over 1295 00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:37,680 it all over the place you know if i'd 1296 00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,599 gotten this from um 1297 00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:41,359 from a student i you know i taught a 1298 00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:44,000 master's research writing class when i 1299 00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,920 was uh teaching university in the 1300 00:46:50,630 --> 00:46:47,839 netherlands if i'd gotten this from 1301 00:46:53,430 --> 00:46:50,640 students initially i'd be thinking wow 1302 00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:53,440 you got a 96 page paper here 93 whatever 1303 00:46:58,150 --> 00:46:56,240 it is and that's impressive oh you got 1304 00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:58,160 340 000 participants that's impressive 1305 00:47:01,430 --> 00:46:59,760 right i look at it but then i'd read one 1306 00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:01,440 paragraph in i'd be thinking this is a 1307 00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:04,480 bunch of garbage because they don't 1308 00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:07,040 treat the subject honestly from the very 1309 00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:09,280 beginning they don't deal with any kind 1310 00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:11,599 of contrary information whatsoever and 1311 00:47:14,550 --> 00:47:12,960 they disguise their numbers and they're 1312 00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:14,560 inflating things all over the place by 1313 00:47:17,670 --> 00:47:16,240 using these wild extrapolations without 1314 00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:17,680 sufficient bases 1315 00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:20,160 it's ridiculous the the real problem to 1316 00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:22,319 me that i'm trying to 1317 00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:24,160 chronicle if you will because i feel 1318 00:47:27,349 --> 00:47:26,000 like i've been kind of part of it with 1319 00:47:28,549 --> 00:47:27,359 skeptico 1320 00:47:32,069 --> 00:47:28,559 is 1321 00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,079 how rapidly they've undermined science 1322 00:47:35,990 --> 00:47:34,160 you know what i mean because like 1323 00:47:37,829 --> 00:47:36,000 you did the thing with daryl bem for 1324 00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:37,839 your journal of scientific exploration 1325 00:47:41,430 --> 00:47:38,880 paper 1326 00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:41,440 i had daryl bem on this show 1327 00:47:45,349 --> 00:47:43,359 let me pull it up 1328 00:47:46,390 --> 00:47:45,359 hey alex yes 1329 00:47:48,069 --> 00:47:46,400 while you're doing that i want to 1330 00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:48,079 mention two things because i want to say 1331 00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:49,760 this and i'm hoping that it's you you 1332 00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,760 find it worth including 1333 00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:54,000 number one i love talking about how 1334 00:47:59,510 --> 00:47:56,640 science is undermined okay and i also 1335 00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:59,520 think you and your skeptico program have 1336 00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:00,880 done a lot 1337 00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:03,520 to illustrate that and i really admire 1338 00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:06,079 that work that you've done so to me the 1339 00:48:11,910 --> 00:48:08,240 hallmark of skeptico is you're 1340 00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:11,920 absolutely not afraid to deal directly 1341 00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:14,160 with the people who disagree with you 1342 00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:16,640 and you as far as i can tell have 1343 00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:19,680 honestly tried to find out if the other 1344 00:48:23,349 --> 00:48:21,760 side might be right you've asked them 1345 00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:23,359 the questions you need to ask and you've 1346 00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:25,040 listened to their answers 1347 00:48:29,510 --> 00:48:27,280 and you've waited until you've done that 1348 00:48:32,230 --> 00:48:29,520 before deciding okay wait a minute this 1349 00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:32,240 makes sense or it doesn't to me that's 1350 00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:33,599 how this kind of inquiry should be 1351 00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:36,000 conducted and it is something that i 1352 00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,119 don't see 1353 00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:39,760 very often anymore at least not in these 1354 00:48:43,349 --> 00:48:41,280 kinds of subjects 1355 00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:43,359 that's nice of you to say 1356 00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:46,480 my concern is that in the 1357 00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:48,400 10 plus years that i've been doing this 1358 00:48:51,190 --> 00:48:50,079 it's kind of coming up on 15 pretty 1359 00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:51,200 quick 1360 00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:53,200 i've definitely seen a shift 1361 00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:55,280 i definitely have seen a shift and i 1362 00:48:59,270 --> 00:48:57,359 want to talk about that with you because 1363 00:49:02,470 --> 00:48:59,280 ultimately that's what this that's what 1364 00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:02,480 this whole thing is really about is how 1365 00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:03,920 far down 1366 00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:06,800 on the path are we is this business as 1367 00:49:12,549 --> 00:49:09,920 usual to what extent can we should we 1368 00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:12,559 try to stop this when i 1369 00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:14,480 back in the day when i really had no 1370 00:49:21,190 --> 00:49:17,920 clue and i had richard wiseman and 1371 00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:21,200 rupert sheldrick on there debating about 1372 00:49:24,470 --> 00:49:22,800 dogs that know when their owners are 1373 00:49:27,270 --> 00:49:24,480 coming home and i don't know if anyone 1374 00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:27,280 remembers this show way back then but we 1375 00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:28,480 really 1376 00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:32,800 was kind of a seminal moment because we 1377 00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,440 got we got richard wiseman on and he 1378 00:49:39,270 --> 00:49:37,520 finally had to admit well 1379 00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:39,280 yeah he wouldn't admit 1380 00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:40,559 that he was being intentionally 1381 00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:43,040 deceptive which he was and sheldor 1382 00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:44,640 called him out on it 1383 00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,880 but he admitted well the data is the 1384 00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:48,960 data i can't really argue against 1385 00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:50,880 sheldrick's data 1386 00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:53,760 to me at this point that looks so 1387 00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:56,480 refreshingly honest from a very 1388 00:50:03,109 --> 00:49:59,119 dishonest guy richard wiseman that it's 1389 00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:03,119 almost a marker of how far we've slipped 1390 00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:07,440 i pulled up uh episode 170 with daryl 1391 00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:10,480 bem responds to parapsychology debunkers 1392 00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:13,359 and i also pulled up way back 1393 00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:16,319 skeptical 126 andy paquette claims 20 1394 00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:17,760 years of history with pre-cognitive 1395 00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:19,520 dreams 1396 00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:21,359 the reason they're linked is because you 1397 00:50:27,109 --> 00:50:24,079 did lean on daryl ben because you had a 1398 00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:27,119 complicated statistical problem again 1399 00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:29,760 you're super rigorous about the way you 1400 00:50:34,870 --> 00:50:33,040 treat your data and as such you had data 1401 00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:34,880 that you could really do just real 1402 00:50:37,829 --> 00:50:37,119 statistical analysis on it and you had 1403 00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:37,839 to 1404 00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:42,800 spun your head around 1405 00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:46,079 daryl bem cornell university published 1406 00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:48,880 in top journals had the same problem and 1407 00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:51,599 it when when we did the the 1408 00:50:56,470 --> 00:50:54,480 when we did this episode on daryl bem he 1409 00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:56,480 comes to the same conclusion 1410 00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:58,800 intentionally deceptive and again it was 1411 00:51:03,589 --> 00:51:01,440 richard wiseman i don't know 1412 00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:03,599 richard wiseman he was kind of the guy 1413 00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:05,440 that they leaned on to go 1414 00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:07,920 debunk this stuff back in the day but 1415 00:51:14,069 --> 00:51:10,720 again it was intentionally deceptive but 1416 00:51:17,589 --> 00:51:14,079 not to the order of magnitude that we 1417 00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:17,599 see here this to me seems like a whole 1418 00:51:21,349 --> 00:51:20,079 different ballgame where you have 1419 00:51:24,390 --> 00:51:21,359 like you pointed out at the very 1420 00:51:26,710 --> 00:51:24,400 beginning you have a pure you you have a 1421 00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:26,720 pre-release paper that hasn't even 1422 00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:29,119 undergone peer review and you 1423 00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:31,599 immediately have the media access to the 1424 00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:34,319 washington post new york times live 1425 00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:36,640 science all the other places to make out 1426 00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:39,599 and make all these outrageous claims 1427 00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:42,160 this is a new level that i haven't seen 1428 00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:44,559 before and it just makes you wonder 1429 00:51:48,309 --> 00:51:45,920 how far 1430 00:51:51,670 --> 00:51:48,319 they've gone in just kind of completely 1431 00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:51,680 undermining serious scientific 1432 00:51:56,549 --> 00:51:54,480 debate serious scientific analysis on 1433 00:51:58,790 --> 00:51:56,559 tough subjects on the stuff that just 1434 00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:58,800 doesn't conform with what everyone 1435 00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:00,400 already believes 1436 00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,400 actually i've gotta i'm just gonna make 1437 00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,559 a couple comments on that because i i 1438 00:52:07,750 --> 00:52:06,480 made a couple of observations i hadn't 1439 00:52:09,670 --> 00:52:07,760 really thought of until you started 1440 00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:09,680 talking about this 1441 00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:13,200 so when i started getting into um 1442 00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:15,520 studying dreams right it was simply 1443 00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:17,520 because i had evidence in front of me 1444 00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:19,599 and although i didn't notice it my wife 1445 00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:22,000 did she got me to look at it 1446 00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:23,760 but at a certain point i started 1447 00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:25,440 listening to your shows and it was 1448 00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:26,960 interesting i actually really enjoyed 1449 00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:29,119 hearing the adverse comments that the 1450 00:52:33,670 --> 00:52:30,839 people who disagreed with the 1451 00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,680 parapsychology hypothesis because 1452 00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,760 if by by listening to them i felt 1453 00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:37,200 actually better 1454 00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:39,440 about um 1455 00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:41,520 some of the other conclusions i i had 1456 00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:43,040 made because 1457 00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:45,040 they never made any sense they very 1458 00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:46,800 rarely justified what they were saying 1459 00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:49,040 very well and i could very easily see 1460 00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,400 through their arguments 1461 00:52:54,549 --> 00:52:52,720 if i hadn't seen that i might have 1462 00:52:57,270 --> 00:52:54,559 always harbored a suspicion that maybe 1463 00:52:59,270 --> 00:52:57,280 there was a a fantastic nail in the 1464 00:53:01,510 --> 00:52:59,280 coffin argument out there just waiting 1465 00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,520 to shoot down the idea that i'm having 1466 00:53:05,270 --> 00:53:03,359 dreams about the future right 1467 00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:05,280 but because i actually saw these guys or 1468 00:53:09,670 --> 00:53:07,599 heard them on your show i was able to 1469 00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:09,680 just you know realize that that that 1470 00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:12,000 probably isn't the case but one thing 1471 00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:13,040 that i 1472 00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:15,920 i did feel at the time is that this is 1473 00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:18,240 parapsychology this is an inherently 1474 00:53:22,230 --> 00:53:20,000 controversial topic there are a lot of 1475 00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:22,240 people who just on the basis of atheism 1476 00:53:26,069 --> 00:53:24,640 alone aren't going to accept anything 1477 00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:26,079 related to this and then you're going to 1478 00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:27,359 have people for religious reasons aren't 1479 00:53:30,390 --> 00:53:28,800 going to accept it then there's this 1480 00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:30,400 tiny sliver of people who are going to 1481 00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:32,559 be open enough to actually pay attention 1482 00:53:36,549 --> 00:53:35,119 to the data and even the smaller sliver 1483 00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,559 that are going to understand it and even 1484 00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,240 smaller sliver they're going to have 1485 00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:40,880 access to the right data okay so i was 1486 00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:43,440 looking at the the problem with skeptics 1487 00:53:48,069 --> 00:53:45,359 and parapsychology is being 1488 00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:48,079 linked to that subject matter but after 1489 00:53:52,790 --> 00:53:49,440 listening to you talk right now i'm 1490 00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:52,800 wondering if we're seeing dishonesty 1491 00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:56,400 among scientists in parapsychology why 1492 00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:58,079 would we think it's any different among 1493 00:54:02,630 --> 00:54:00,640 scientists anywhere else okay 1494 00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:02,640 and looking at what we're seeing right 1495 00:54:07,270 --> 00:54:05,359 now makes me think it is impossible that 1496 00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:07,280 these guys suddenly became dishonest in 1497 00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:09,440 the last 18 months during the covet 1498 00:54:13,030 --> 00:54:10,800 pandemic 1499 00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:13,040 i think it's been going on and we just 1500 00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:15,440 haven't noticed it because the subjects 1501 00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:18,079 were inherently less controversial in 1502 00:54:23,349 --> 00:54:21,040 other words why question it okay 1503 00:54:24,870 --> 00:54:23,359 with a subject that is inherently uh 1504 00:54:26,710 --> 00:54:24,880 controversial 1505 00:54:28,910 --> 00:54:26,720 parapsychology and i think this is also 1506 00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:28,920 a very interesting data point 1507 00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:31,520 parapsychologists have been essentially 1508 00:54:35,829 --> 00:54:32,640 forced 1509 00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:35,839 to use far more rigorous methods than 1510 00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:39,040 are used anywhere else because 1511 00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:40,960 they keep on defeating the arguments the 1512 00:54:45,190 --> 00:54:42,720 skeptics throw their way 1513 00:54:47,670 --> 00:54:45,200 but to do it they have to keep on coming 1514 00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:47,680 up with new methods that are even more 1515 00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:50,000 rigorous and what has happened is 1516 00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:52,319 they've essentially become almost i hate 1517 00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:53,920 to say it this way like superheroes 1518 00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:55,440 among scientists 1519 00:55:00,230 --> 00:54:58,079 because the strength of the rigor that 1520 00:55:01,829 --> 00:55:00,240 they're applying is much greater than 1521 00:55:04,069 --> 00:55:01,839 what you see elsewhere 1522 00:55:06,549 --> 00:55:04,079 so what that implies to me if we're 1523 00:55:09,829 --> 00:55:06,559 seeing this high level of skepticism in 1524 00:55:11,829 --> 00:55:09,839 this field with this level of rigor okay 1525 00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:11,839 it's definitely happening everywhere 1526 00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,760 else that is to say the lies and 1527 00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:15,839 obfuscations and so on and nobody's 1528 00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:17,920 looking at it very carefully because 1529 00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:20,559 it's not very controversial so and then 1530 00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:23,119 i started thinking about uh climate 1531 00:55:25,750 --> 00:55:24,480 change science and you know 1532 00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:25,760 conversations i've had with a good 1533 00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:26,880 friend of mine who's a high energy 1534 00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:28,160 physicist and 1535 00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:29,760 on the topic and i'm thinking you know 1536 00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:31,760 what this has been going on for a long 1537 00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:33,520 time there's a very high level of 1538 00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:36,240 purduality a low level of skepticism and 1539 00:55:40,549 --> 00:55:38,480 i'll tell you i associate skepticism 1540 00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:40,559 with the practice of genuine science 1541 00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:41,440 right 1542 00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:44,400 be skeptical look at the data follow the 1543 00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,480 data come to conclusions that are based 1544 00:55:51,589 --> 00:55:48,799 on the data right but what i'm seeing 1545 00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:51,599 instead are people who are following 1546 00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:54,400 whatever instinct they have which may be 1547 00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:56,960 a desire and it may be something that is 1548 00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:59,359 based on genuine investigatory 1549 00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:01,440 perception i don't know but 1550 00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,119 but in this particular case it looks 1551 00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:05,280 like these guys wanted money from who 1552 00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:07,280 and they figured this is a way to do it 1553 00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:09,520 because um doing anything that's going 1554 00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:11,280 to support mass mandates is going to get 1555 00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:13,839 the money uh that's the push right now 1556 00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:16,960 so just like jumping on the railroads 1557 00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:20,480 back in the 1850s um this is like a gold 1558 00:56:23,829 --> 00:56:22,640 rush for people who do research 1559 00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:23,839 do something that's going to support 1560 00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:25,599 mass mandates 1561 00:56:29,589 --> 00:56:27,599 and that's even putting a potentially 1562 00:56:32,549 --> 00:56:29,599 positive spin on it we don't know if 1563 00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:32,559 it's more diabolical than that more evil 1564 00:56:36,870 --> 00:56:35,040 than that but i just wanted to throw in 1565 00:56:38,950 --> 00:56:36,880 add a little meat to the bones that you 1566 00:56:41,270 --> 00:56:38,960 just laid out because retracing that 1567 00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:41,280 history of parapsychology is really 1568 00:56:44,309 --> 00:56:42,240 useful 1569 00:56:45,910 --> 00:56:44,319 i remember way back in the day one of 1570 00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:45,920 the things that the parapsychologist 1571 00:56:52,390 --> 00:56:48,799 really pioneered is and dean rayden can 1572 00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:52,400 be credited with with this is a very uh 1573 00:56:56,470 --> 00:56:54,480 rigorous statistical look at the file 1574 00:56:58,470 --> 00:56:56,480 drawer problem both 1575 00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:58,480 practically and statistically and the 1576 00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:00,960 file drawer problem in case people don't 1577 00:57:03,589 --> 00:57:02,160 know it is 1578 00:57:06,030 --> 00:57:03,599 because people when they want to 1579 00:57:08,870 --> 00:57:06,040 replicate an experiment want a 1580 00:57:11,430 --> 00:57:08,880 replication they can be prone in some 1581 00:57:13,670 --> 00:57:11,440 cases either consciously or not totally 1582 00:57:15,270 --> 00:57:13,680 consciously to take a result that 1583 00:57:18,069 --> 00:57:15,280 doesn't get the result they're looking 1584 00:57:20,230 --> 00:57:18,079 for and put file it away and never 1585 00:57:22,309 --> 00:57:20,240 publish it and that sounds really bad 1586 00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,319 but it wouldn't be you know particularly 1587 00:57:26,069 --> 00:57:24,000 parapsychology points this out you know 1588 00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:26,079 if you're doing a zen card hey can you 1589 00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:27,839 tell you know what card i'm holding here 1590 00:57:31,670 --> 00:57:30,000 secretly hey if it just flops you just 1591 00:57:33,270 --> 00:57:31,680 go oh forget it you know just put it 1592 00:57:35,589 --> 00:57:33,280 away so 1593 00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:35,599 he had a really complicated but useful 1594 00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:37,040 way that has been adopted by other 1595 00:57:41,349 --> 00:57:39,200 people to for how to account for the 1596 00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:41,359 file drawer problem another one is the 1597 00:57:46,549 --> 00:57:43,680 experimenter effect when they said hey 1598 00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:46,559 we replicate this experiment as closely 1599 00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:48,160 as we can 1600 00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:50,079 and we get a different result and when 1601 00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,079 we really sort it all out the only 1602 00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:54,000 difference we can get is the 1603 00:57:58,950 --> 00:57:56,319 experimenter is it possible that the 1604 00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:58,960 beliefs and values on some level that we 1605 00:58:03,190 --> 00:58:00,799 can't completely measure of the 1606 00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:03,200 experimenter is making a difference 1607 00:58:09,109 --> 00:58:06,559 these guys these parapsychologists act 1608 00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:09,119 actually pioneered this kind of work 1609 00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:11,280 that has made its way into other 1610 00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:13,200 branches of science for people who are 1611 00:58:18,630 --> 00:58:15,599 willing to be truly open-minded and 1612 00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:18,640 truly want to figure out what's going on 1613 00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:19,839 yeah you know i was going to say 1614 00:58:23,109 --> 00:58:21,119 something else but now that you said 1615 00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:23,119 that i'm just going to point one thing 1616 00:58:26,549 --> 00:58:24,960 out because i had to deal with the final 1617 00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:26,559 word problem myself you know if you look 1618 00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:29,839 at my dream journal i have uh right now 1619 00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:31,280 it's not open on my screen right now but 1620 00:58:35,670 --> 00:58:34,079 it's somewhat in excess of 450 uh what i 1621 00:58:37,270 --> 00:58:35,680 would call vertical dreams meaning i've 1622 00:58:39,109 --> 00:58:37,280 checked them out i've investigated them 1623 00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:39,119 i've got i've got some kind of 1624 00:58:43,349 --> 00:58:41,760 validation that these dreams related to 1625 00:58:45,349 --> 00:58:43,359 something i couldn't have had normal 1626 00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:45,359 knowledge of right 1627 00:58:49,990 --> 00:58:47,200 but that number has been relatively 1628 00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:50,000 constant since i stopped actively 1629 00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:52,240 looking for validation so 1630 00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:54,960 uh as of 1991 1631 00:59:00,789 --> 00:58:57,760 that's how many there are and then 1632 00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,799 flash forward 20 years and it's maybe 1633 00:59:04,710 --> 00:59:02,319 a couple dozen more because i only 1634 00:59:06,549 --> 00:59:04,720 passively verify them now that is to say 1635 00:59:08,549 --> 00:59:06,559 if something happens and i just can't 1636 00:59:10,630 --> 00:59:08,559 avoid finding out that it's it's uh it's 1637 00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:10,640 valid then i'll write it down but i 1638 00:59:15,670 --> 00:59:12,880 don't actively go out proactively and 1639 00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:15,680 try to find validation so um you could 1640 00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:17,920 look at this as either a proportion of 1641 00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:21,440 450 out of 800 dreams 1642 00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:23,920 which is a very high percentage of 1643 00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:26,480 vertical dreams uh or you could look at 1644 00:59:29,349 --> 00:59:28,160 in the context of you know the entire 1645 00:59:32,309 --> 00:59:29,359 time i've been keeping the journal which 1646 00:59:34,710 --> 00:59:32,319 is 13 300 dreams right much smaller 1647 00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:34,720 percentage but it's a misleading result 1648 00:59:38,789 --> 00:59:36,960 because the fact is i haven't been 1649 00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:38,799 checking all that time right 1650 00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:40,400 so how do i deal with the file drawer 1651 00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:42,960 problem right well i report how many are 1652 00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:45,280 in the journal and when i stop checking 1653 00:59:49,270 --> 00:59:47,440 them and how many have been checked 1654 00:59:51,670 --> 00:59:49,280 within that time period and i ignore the 1655 00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:51,680 ones that are checked afterward 1656 00:59:54,789 --> 00:59:53,200 so i'm able to deal with it but i do 1657 00:59:56,309 --> 00:59:54,799 deal with it i have to think about it 1658 00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:56,319 and i think about it because of what 1659 01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:58,880 you're just mentioning from dean raven 1660 01:00:03,190 --> 01:00:00,559 and i think it's an important issue i 1661 01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:03,200 and this is like these guys who did this 1662 01:00:07,510 --> 01:00:05,680 article on the uh on the mask study 1663 01:00:10,150 --> 01:00:07,520 they're so far from dealing with the the 1664 01:00:11,670 --> 01:00:10,160 uh founder problem it's embarrassing um 1665 01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:11,680 but the other thing you mentioned about 1666 01:00:15,670 --> 01:00:14,160 this being like diabolical i did want to 1667 01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:15,680 talk about that okay 1668 01:00:19,430 --> 01:00:16,960 because 1669 01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:19,440 it's true you you can actually 1670 01:00:23,190 --> 01:00:20,880 be kind of nice in the way you talk 1671 01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,200 about uh these various lies that are 1672 01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:25,520 being promulgated on the the people of 1673 01:00:29,349 --> 01:00:27,680 this country in the world actually uh in 1674 01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:29,359 this case the people of bangladesh i 1675 01:00:33,109 --> 01:00:30,720 guess you know maybe there's 1676 01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:33,119 well-meaning people who who have an idea 1677 01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:34,400 and it doesn't work and they just don't 1678 01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:36,240 want to admit it or they're not able to 1679 01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:38,079 to see it but 1680 01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:39,839 when i look at studies like that a 1681 01:00:43,829 --> 01:00:41,520 spontaneous miscarriage study among 1682 01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:43,839 pregnant women from the cdc 1683 01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:45,920 that looks intentional that looks like 1684 01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:47,599 they are promoting something that they 1685 01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:50,400 know will cause miscarriages on purpose 1686 01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,839 because to them 1687 01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:53,680 their goal of getting everyone 1688 01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:55,359 vaccinated is more important than the 1689 01:00:59,190 --> 01:00:57,119 health of these people and that is 1690 01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:59,200 diabolical because at that point they 1691 01:01:02,470 --> 01:01:00,960 are doing something that they know is 1692 01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:02,480 going to cause death 1693 01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:04,240 i'm with you well i think you make a 1694 01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:07,040 great point one thing i will say i save 1695 01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:08,880 it for later that's fine but i i think 1696 01:01:13,030 --> 01:01:10,480 it's actually a very important 1697 01:01:15,190 --> 01:01:13,040 distinction between people choosing on 1698 01:01:17,910 --> 01:01:15,200 their own to do something that carries 1699 01:01:20,069 --> 01:01:17,920 risk and people being told they have to 1700 01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:20,079 do something that carries risk 1701 01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:21,839 because it's like if you tell everybody 1702 01:01:25,270 --> 01:01:23,119 in the whole country you have to play 1703 01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:25,280 russian roulette you're guaranteeing a 1704 01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:27,280 certain number of deaths if you leave it 1705 01:01:29,990 --> 01:01:28,799 up to them themselves not all those 1706 01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:30,000 people are going to try it's kind of 1707 01:01:33,670 --> 01:01:32,319 like the coins flip versus coins not 1708 01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:33,680 flipped uh 1709 01:01:39,910 --> 01:01:36,079 issue when you get to the rhine studies 1710 01:01:42,069 --> 01:01:39,920 um i i find this is is a very very 1711 01:01:44,230 --> 01:01:42,079 interesting and very damning point when 1712 01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:44,240 it comes to those mandates 1713 01:01:47,670 --> 01:01:45,680 well that kind of reminds me of a couple 1714 01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:47,680 of points as we wrap this up that i 1715 01:01:51,510 --> 01:01:50,160 wanted to to mention that get buried in 1716 01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:51,520 all this 1717 01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:54,000 one right off the bat when people think 1718 01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:56,240 about masks they've been kind of 1719 01:02:02,470 --> 01:01:58,559 conditioned to get into this debate 1720 01:02:04,309 --> 01:02:02,480 about whether masks work in a laboratory 1721 01:02:06,150 --> 01:02:04,319 in terms of preventing the virus and 1722 01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:06,160 we've all seen the graphic on this 1723 01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:07,680 there's a mask and there's like this 1724 01:02:11,990 --> 01:02:09,920 aerosol spray that's your photographer 1725 01:02:13,750 --> 01:02:12,000 you know how they shoot it and you see 1726 01:02:15,990 --> 01:02:13,760 all this stuff coming towards the mask 1727 01:02:19,589 --> 01:02:16,000 and either gets in or gets out 1728 01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:19,599 i can't speak to the efficacy of those 1729 01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:21,359 studies and i think they're all over the 1730 01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:24,240 board but what i what i do think is it 1731 01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:25,839 kind of misses the point because the 1732 01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:29,440 point is public health policy 1733 01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:32,480 and in particular the point is science 1734 01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:34,960 and scientific confidence and whether 1735 01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:37,200 public health policy should be based on 1736 01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:39,680 science which we all agree it should be 1737 01:02:44,549 --> 01:02:41,760 and to what extent does that science 1738 01:02:46,309 --> 01:02:44,559 have to convince us in order for us to 1739 01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:46,319 give up the rights that we normally 1740 01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:49,039 think are our rights at least in this 1741 01:02:54,069 --> 01:02:51,200 country as americans our default 1742 01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:54,079 position is hey you can't make me do 1743 01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:55,440 what i don't want to do if it isn't 1744 01:02:59,349 --> 01:02:57,440 harming anyone else so if i want a 1745 01:03:02,309 --> 01:02:59,359 mirror mask or not wear a mask it 1746 01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:02,319 doesn't matter it's my choice so the 1747 01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:03,839 question is 1748 01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:06,480 what kind of science what degree of 1749 01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:09,839 certainty would you need in order to 1750 01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:11,680 have something that 1751 01:03:16,390 --> 01:03:14,480 over overrides that you know and that's 1752 01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:16,400 what we're really talking about here so 1753 01:03:21,750 --> 01:03:19,520 that science is not laboratory science 1754 01:03:22,950 --> 01:03:21,760 that you we would quickly get anyone to 1755 01:03:25,029 --> 01:03:22,960 agree that what you'd have to do is go 1756 01:03:26,390 --> 01:03:25,039 out and test it in the public and see if 1757 01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:26,400 what you're what you're trying to 1758 01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:28,240 implement as a public health policy it 1759 01:03:31,670 --> 01:03:30,240 really is effective the other thing that 1760 01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:31,680 i'd point out really quickly because i'm 1761 01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:33,280 kind of going on about this point but i 1762 01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:36,240 keep making it again and again is 1763 01:03:40,230 --> 01:03:38,160 because whenever we've done that we 1764 01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,240 always get a null result we always come 1765 01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:42,480 back and say masks don't seem to make a 1766 01:03:46,870 --> 01:03:44,480 difference in the general public 1767 01:03:48,950 --> 01:03:46,880 we've never really seriously considered 1768 01:03:50,549 --> 01:03:48,960 the adverse effects 1769 01:03:52,230 --> 01:03:50,559 because we don't have to because we're 1770 01:03:54,309 --> 01:03:52,240 not forcing people to wear masks we've 1771 01:03:57,510 --> 01:03:54,319 never really seriously considered the 1772 01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:57,520 adverse effects when we do when a couple 1773 01:04:01,349 --> 01:03:59,599 of people have and they say hey there's 1774 01:04:03,510 --> 01:04:01,359 some pretty risky things that we might 1775 01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:03,520 want to look into in terms of mask 1776 01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,440 wearing so that's all left out of the 1777 01:04:10,309 --> 01:04:07,520 equation because 1778 01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:10,319 you shouldn't be mandated because mask 1779 01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:12,400 mandates aren't really supported in the 1780 01:04:16,789 --> 01:04:15,039 science after all 1781 01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:16,799 well when i when i see this kind of 1782 01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:19,839 stuff going on and i any time i i see 1783 01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:22,079 something that doesn't really make sense 1784 01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:23,440 to me like this 1785 01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:26,559 my first reaction is usually i need more 1786 01:04:30,549 --> 01:04:28,799 information i'm missing information on 1787 01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:30,559 this and i think this is one of those 1788 01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:34,079 situations because the covid pandemic 1789 01:04:38,549 --> 01:04:35,680 reaction 1790 01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:38,559 based on the idea that kovit is super 1791 01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:39,760 dangerous 1792 01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:41,760 does not match the data we have on the 1793 01:04:46,950 --> 01:04:44,480 actual danger posed by kovit therefore 1794 01:04:49,109 --> 01:04:46,960 it's unsupported the wearing of masks is 1795 01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:49,119 based on that but that's not supported 1796 01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:50,799 properly there and the masks aren't 1797 01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:52,160 supported properly thanks to all the 1798 01:04:54,549 --> 01:04:53,280 studies showing us that they're not 1799 01:04:56,309 --> 01:04:54,559 efficacious 1800 01:04:58,230 --> 01:04:56,319 and so the fact that we're being told to 1801 01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:58,240 do this anyway when the people who are 1802 01:05:02,309 --> 01:05:00,480 asking us to do it have to know that it 1803 01:05:04,630 --> 01:05:02,319 doesn't work okay and we actually know 1804 01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:04,640 that dr anthony fauci is on the record 1805 01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:06,960 saying masks don't work actually several 1806 01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:08,640 other doctors who are promoting the use 1807 01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:11,920 of masks are saying essentially it's a a 1808 01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:14,319 placebo just to make people feel better 1809 01:05:17,829 --> 01:05:16,079 if that's what they're saying then why 1810 01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:17,839 are they attaching legal penalties to 1811 01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,079 not wearing masks in australia for 1812 01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:22,400 instance or actually even in new york 1813 01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:23,760 city they're 1814 01:05:28,789 --> 01:05:26,640 not now but uh a number of months ago 1815 01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:28,799 they were actually giving people tickets 1816 01:05:33,190 --> 01:05:31,280 for not wearing masks in certain places 1817 01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:33,200 so that kind of thing bothers me but but 1818 01:05:36,789 --> 01:05:34,960 one thing you mentioned made me think of 1819 01:05:40,230 --> 01:05:36,799 something there's a comic published in 1820 01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:40,240 the 1940s um this it's a donald.comic 1821 01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,240 with a story called the golden helmet 1822 01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:44,400 and the idea behind this story is that 1823 01:05:49,109 --> 01:05:46,960 the golden helmet found in labrador 1824 01:05:50,470 --> 01:05:49,119 established the person as the owner of 1825 01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:50,480 all of north america 1826 01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:51,680 okay 1827 01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:53,200 and so 1828 01:05:57,109 --> 01:05:55,200 it goes through a number of different 1829 01:05:57,990 --> 01:05:57,119 people you know donald duck gets it an 1830 01:05:59,589 --> 01:05:58,000 evil 1831 01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:59,599 museum curator gets it all these other 1832 01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:00,960 people get it they all say what they're 1833 01:06:05,910 --> 01:06:04,000 going to do when they own north america 1834 01:06:07,910 --> 01:06:05,920 so the museum curator says i'm going to 1835 01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:07,920 make everybody go to museums every day 1836 01:06:11,829 --> 01:06:09,599 of the week and school is going to be 1837 01:06:15,109 --> 01:06:11,839 all about going to museums okay 1838 01:06:16,630 --> 01:06:15,119 um this evil lawyer says he's going to 1839 01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:16,640 do all these evil things to take 1840 01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:18,480 everybody's money okay 1841 01:06:22,390 --> 01:06:21,119 and then when donald gets it he says i'm 1842 01:06:24,710 --> 01:06:22,400 going to 1843 01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:24,720 charge people for the air they breathe 1844 01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:28,000 okay a sigh can cost a nickel a gasp a 1845 01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:30,000 dime okay 1846 01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:32,960 but the point is that they've got this 1847 01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:36,319 arbitrary designation of power that 1848 01:06:39,990 --> 01:06:37,920 allows them to make everyone in the 1849 01:06:42,870 --> 01:06:40,000 entire country do the same thing to 1850 01:06:45,510 --> 01:06:42,880 their benefit and no matter what it is 1851 01:06:47,109 --> 01:06:45,520 whether it's going to museums or being 1852 01:06:50,390 --> 01:06:47,119 charged for the air you breathe it's 1853 01:06:52,710 --> 01:06:50,400 evil and it's bad and it's unsupportable 1854 01:06:55,109 --> 01:06:52,720 so when i look at this and you ask me so 1855 01:06:57,589 --> 01:06:55,119 at what level do you think it's okay for 1856 01:06:59,029 --> 01:06:57,599 them to take this control over you 1857 01:07:00,549 --> 01:06:59,039 i don't know that there is a level where 1858 01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:00,559 i think that would be okay i mean you 1859 01:07:05,829 --> 01:07:03,839 could have meteors hurtling from the sky 1860 01:07:08,390 --> 01:07:05,839 and the public address system could be 1861 01:07:11,190 --> 01:07:08,400 saying duck and cover okay and i would 1862 01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:11,200 still consider it my right perhaps 1863 01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:13,280 unwisely to stand out in front of a 1864 01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:15,920 meteor okay and not be arrested for it 1865 01:07:20,470 --> 01:07:18,240 okay um i'll give you another example 1866 01:07:23,109 --> 01:07:20,480 you know i i'm vegan right you know i'm 1867 01:07:24,950 --> 01:07:23,119 vegan um would you like it if i said you 1868 01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:24,960 had to be vegan too because i had the 1869 01:07:28,950 --> 01:07:27,359 golden helmet i i don't want that to 1870 01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:28,960 happen why would i want to force you to 1871 01:07:33,190 --> 01:07:30,720 do something you're not comfortable with 1872 01:07:35,109 --> 01:07:33,200 it doesn't make any sense um and that's 1873 01:07:37,029 --> 01:07:35,119 what the government now thinks they've 1874 01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:37,039 got the power to do i think and it's not 1875 01:07:39,990 --> 01:07:38,640 just our country it's like all over the 1876 01:07:42,069 --> 01:07:40,000 world it's crazy 1877 01:07:43,349 --> 01:07:42,079 it's not about science it's about 1878 01:07:45,109 --> 01:07:43,359 compliance 1879 01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:45,119 heard that the other day i think it's a 1880 01:07:50,230 --> 01:07:48,160 great one andy what's coming up for you 1881 01:07:51,829 --> 01:07:50,240 we are i should mention 1882 01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:51,839 we are going to do another show i don't 1883 01:07:55,829 --> 01:07:53,839 want to tell people what it's about but 1884 01:07:57,750 --> 01:07:55,839 it kind of piggybacks on this one 1885 01:08:00,390 --> 01:07:57,760 because it's about 1886 01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:00,400 following the science and where we might 1887 01:08:05,109 --> 01:08:02,960 get if we follow the science and what 1888 01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:05,119 that might get us into in the 1889 01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:07,359 political and parapolitical arena but 1890 01:08:11,029 --> 01:08:09,440 that's all i'm going to say about it but 1891 01:08:13,430 --> 01:08:11,039 what else is going on with you what are 1892 01:08:14,789 --> 01:08:13,440 you working on what's happening 1893 01:08:16,229 --> 01:08:14,799 you know i want to answer that question 1894 01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:16,239 but i hate to tell you i just had an 1895 01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:17,679 idea to say something i want to say it 1896 01:08:20,390 --> 01:08:18,640 okay 1897 01:08:23,590 --> 01:08:20,400 fundamentally 1898 01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:23,600 science is about honesty 1899 01:08:27,110 --> 01:08:26,159 science that is not honest is not 1900 01:08:28,789 --> 01:08:27,120 science 1901 01:08:31,110 --> 01:08:28,799 period okay 1902 01:08:32,870 --> 01:08:31,120 because if you don't record what you're 1903 01:08:34,709 --> 01:08:32,880 doing honestly if you don't state your 1904 01:08:36,309 --> 01:08:34,719 goals honestly if you don't report what 1905 01:08:39,110 --> 01:08:36,319 you did honestly and if you don't 1906 01:08:41,110 --> 01:08:39,120 honestly evaluate what you've got 1907 01:08:43,269 --> 01:08:41,120 you aren't doing science 1908 01:08:45,269 --> 01:08:43,279 thank you 1909 01:08:47,349 --> 01:08:45,279 so you're asking me what i'm doing 1910 01:08:48,950 --> 01:08:47,359 well i have to tell you uh thanks to the 1911 01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:48,960 pandemic all the things i planned on 1912 01:08:52,390 --> 01:08:50,560 doing i'm not doing and i'm doing all 1913 01:08:54,149 --> 01:08:52,400 sorts of other things instead 1914 01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:54,159 so i came here and i wanted to set 1915 01:08:58,309 --> 01:08:55,839 myself up as a commercial photographer 1916 01:08:59,910 --> 01:08:58,319 and i was really looking forward to like 1917 01:09:01,430 --> 01:08:59,920 uh traveling around the country and 1918 01:09:03,749 --> 01:09:01,440 doing portraits of prominent 1919 01:09:04,630 --> 01:09:03,759 parapsychologists maybe even you if you 1920 01:09:06,149 --> 01:09:04,640 uh 1921 01:09:08,550 --> 01:09:06,159 somehow became reachable way with the 1922 01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:08,560 heck over on the east coast and i wanted 1923 01:09:12,229 --> 01:09:10,239 to do portraits of athletes this is all 1924 01:09:14,390 --> 01:09:12,239 the stuff i wanted to do and i was set 1925 01:09:16,550 --> 01:09:14,400 up to do and i actually started doing 1926 01:09:18,229 --> 01:09:16,560 um but then covid hit and all of a 1927 01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:18,239 sudden it was inconvenient to be in the 1928 01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:20,560 presence of other human beings so 1929 01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:22,640 studios were closed i you know i 1930 01:09:26,149 --> 01:09:24,960 couldn't get to models or clients or 1931 01:09:28,870 --> 01:09:26,159 anything so 1932 01:09:30,789 --> 01:09:28,880 one day while i was talking to someone 1933 01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:30,799 about doing a photo shoot 1934 01:09:35,110 --> 01:09:32,239 uh this guy turned out to be the 1935 01:09:37,669 --> 01:09:35,120 publisher of a large online publication 1936 01:09:39,349 --> 01:09:37,679 he said boy you sure sound articulate 1937 01:09:41,590 --> 01:09:39,359 i'll bet you'd be a good writer why 1938 01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:41,600 don't you uh write up some samples for 1939 01:09:44,630 --> 01:09:42,799 me the next thing i knew i'd written 1940 01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:44,640 almost 100 articles for him and got paid 1941 01:09:47,189 --> 01:09:46,400 for it so now i'm officially a writer i 1942 01:09:49,749 --> 01:09:47,199 guess 1943 01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:49,759 um and then i was approached to do a 1944 01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:52,080 couple comic books so i did that so i've 1945 01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:53,279 i've done this 1946 01:09:58,870 --> 01:09:56,560 i um i also did do a few photo shoots 1947 01:10:01,030 --> 01:09:58,880 got paid for those and my accountant is 1948 01:10:02,790 --> 01:10:01,040 very confused he's like andrew what do i 1949 01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:02,800 put down as your profession 1950 01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:03,920 because 1951 01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:05,840 you're doing these different things 1952 01:10:08,870 --> 01:10:06,960 and you're getting money from different 1953 01:10:11,510 --> 01:10:08,880 sources and i just started becoming a 1954 01:10:13,669 --> 01:10:11,520 columnist for red voice media um but 1955 01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:13,679 what i'd really like to be doing quite 1956 01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:15,440 frankly is getting back to my art and 1957 01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:17,280 also i'm doing some research on the 1958 01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:19,040 topic we're going to be dealing with uh 1959 01:10:23,669 --> 01:10:21,280 next uh but that's more of a hobby that 1960 01:10:25,270 --> 01:10:23,679 i'm doing just for my own edification 1961 01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,280 and i've also 1962 01:10:29,430 --> 01:10:27,360 been getting quite a quite a few 1963 01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:29,440 contacts related to my dream research 1964 01:10:33,030 --> 01:10:31,199 which kind of surprises me it all 1965 01:10:35,350 --> 01:10:33,040 started about i think two three months 1966 01:10:37,350 --> 01:10:35,360 ago when some i think you recommended 1967 01:10:38,790 --> 01:10:37,360 me to this lady who's an author who 1968 01:10:41,110 --> 01:10:38,800 apparently has written a lot of books 1969 01:10:41,990 --> 01:10:41,120 trish and rob mcgregor have collectively 1970 01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:42,000 written 1971 01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:43,440 100 books 1972 01:10:48,630 --> 01:10:47,040 and rob has uh he wrote all of the 1973 01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:48,640 books for uh 1974 01:10:52,709 --> 01:10:51,040 raiders of the lost ark he didn't write 1975 01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:52,719 the original ones but he wrote a whole 1976 01:10:55,270 --> 01:10:53,760 series 1977 01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:55,280 with uh 1978 01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:57,360 okay 1979 01:11:00,630 --> 01:10:59,199 so i didn't know who they were when i 1980 01:11:02,229 --> 01:11:00,640 did the the interview but apparently 1981 01:11:04,630 --> 01:11:02,239 they're well known enough that i started 1982 01:11:07,110 --> 01:11:04,640 getting a lot more contacts to talk on 1983 01:11:08,870 --> 01:11:07,120 other podcasts and so on and i'm getting 1984 01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:08,880 a lot of encouragement rob and trish i 1985 01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:11,360 just have to interject rob and trish are 1986 01:11:15,590 --> 01:11:12,880 super duper 1987 01:11:17,030 --> 01:11:15,600 well connected and they told me after 1988 01:11:20,070 --> 01:11:17,040 the interview 1989 01:11:22,790 --> 01:11:20,080 that andy might just be the most psychic 1990 01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:22,800 person that they've ever spoken with and 1991 01:11:28,390 --> 01:11:25,520 i think what they meant because trish is 1992 01:11:29,750 --> 01:11:28,400 is kind of tuned into the scientific 1993 01:11:31,750 --> 01:11:29,760 kind of part of this even though that's 1994 01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:31,760 not really her background but they were 1995 01:11:37,110 --> 01:11:34,800 just blown away at the extent to which 1996 01:11:39,430 --> 01:11:37,120 you've documented this carefully and 1997 01:11:41,189 --> 01:11:39,440 meticulously and i just thought that was 1998 01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:41,199 interesting he might be the most psychic 1999 01:11:45,750 --> 01:11:43,840 person i've ever spoken with 2000 01:11:48,709 --> 01:11:45,760 well you know something funny about that 2001 01:11:50,229 --> 01:11:48,719 talking about the the the relative 2002 01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:50,239 percentage uh 2003 01:11:54,149 --> 01:11:51,440 improvement that we were talking about 2004 01:11:57,270 --> 01:11:54,159 with this case study here i oftentimes 2005 01:11:59,669 --> 01:11:57,280 kind of get so um close to my data that 2006 01:12:01,669 --> 01:11:59,679 i forget how unusual it is 2007 01:12:03,430 --> 01:12:01,679 so what will happen is i'll go a few 2008 01:12:04,870 --> 01:12:03,440 days without a dream that's particularly 2009 01:12:07,189 --> 01:12:04,880 interesting and i'll think oh well i 2010 01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,199 guess that's gone and then i'll have one 2011 01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,600 but by the time i do it's it's been you 2012 01:12:13,510 --> 01:12:11,040 know a couple weeks and so it's like 2013 01:12:15,669 --> 01:12:13,520 well this is unusual now this is rare 2014 01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:15,679 and but then when i look at it from a 2015 01:12:18,550 --> 01:12:17,040 greater distance i'm like well wait a 2016 01:12:20,550 --> 01:12:18,560 minute no i actually had several hundred 2017 01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:20,560 interesting ones that year and when i 2018 01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:22,320 compare that to other people it actually 2019 01:12:29,030 --> 01:12:25,040 is a lot but it's hard to remember that 2020 01:12:31,510 --> 01:12:29,040 sometimes what i see in you dr paquette 2021 01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:31,520 is someone who is constantly switching 2022 01:12:34,630 --> 01:12:33,120 hats like you said your account is 2023 01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:34,640 saying and 2024 01:12:39,030 --> 01:12:36,880 i think you are totally open to 2025 01:12:41,990 --> 01:12:39,040 challenging what that even means what 2026 01:12:44,310 --> 01:12:42,000 consciousness means what precognition 2027 01:12:45,830 --> 01:12:44,320 means we have no clue what that means 2028 01:12:48,310 --> 01:12:45,840 right and that's what i think your 2029 01:12:50,550 --> 01:12:48,320 research points to so the rigor with 2030 01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:50,560 which you've taken on 2031 01:12:56,550 --> 01:12:53,760 the real questions behind that is what i 2032 01:12:58,229 --> 01:12:56,560 think really causes us to rethink what 2033 01:12:59,709 --> 01:12:58,239 that even means because i think there's 2034 01:13:02,709 --> 01:12:59,719 an important 2035 01:13:05,030 --> 01:13:02,719 recalibrating that needs to go on for 2036 01:13:07,990 --> 01:13:05,040 the term psychic and i think that's what 2037 01:13:10,470 --> 01:13:08,000 you're in the process of doing because 2038 01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:10,480 we need data otherwise it's just one 2039 01:13:15,189 --> 01:13:12,960 person's opinion it it you've never been 2040 01:13:17,669 --> 01:13:15,199 the sage on the stage kind of type to 2041 01:13:19,830 --> 01:13:17,679 say do it you've always been like a lot 2042 01:13:21,669 --> 01:13:19,840 like you just talked about like oops 2043 01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:21,679 there it goes again what's happening 2044 01:13:27,030 --> 01:13:24,640 there you know kind of thing 2045 01:13:28,550 --> 01:13:27,040 yeah it's it's kind of funny and i just 2046 01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,560 i'm kind of embarrassed that it took so 2047 01:13:31,750 --> 01:13:30,400 long for me to notice because actually i 2048 01:13:33,910 --> 01:13:31,760 had some pretty significant events 2049 01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,920 happen before i was paying attention 2050 01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:35,520 and i let them go i'm kind of 2051 01:13:39,669 --> 01:13:37,199 disappointed with myself for having done 2052 01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:39,679 so but anyway as far as 2053 01:13:43,430 --> 01:13:41,760 as that is concerned i have to admit 2054 01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:43,440 that after looking at it and making 2055 01:13:47,590 --> 01:13:45,440 comparisons with other studies i do have 2056 01:13:50,070 --> 01:13:47,600 a lot of examples more than a lot of 2057 01:13:51,270 --> 01:13:50,080 others in fact actually 2058 01:13:53,590 --> 01:13:51,280 although at one time i was very 2059 01:13:56,229 --> 01:13:53,600 impressed with robert monroe's journeys 2060 01:13:58,630 --> 01:13:56,239 out of the body series of books 2061 01:14:00,149 --> 01:13:58,640 i look at them now and i think number 2062 01:14:02,390 --> 01:14:00,159 one i actually have more examples than 2063 01:14:03,669 --> 01:14:02,400 he does in those books and of course who 2064 01:14:05,110 --> 01:14:03,679 knows how many he's got outside the 2065 01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:05,120 books that he didn't i mean i'm sure 2066 01:14:09,510 --> 01:14:07,199 he's got plenty but but the thing is a 2067 01:14:12,630 --> 01:14:09,520 lot of what i read in there comes across 2068 01:14:15,110 --> 01:14:12,640 as conjecture as opposed to data based 2069 01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:15,120 and that bothers me a lot but the other 2070 01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:17,920 thing is i think that uh precognition 2071 01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:19,760 and prophecy and i by the way i do 2072 01:14:23,669 --> 01:14:21,760 define the two differently precognition 2073 01:14:25,590 --> 01:14:23,679 is simply a view of the future and 2074 01:14:29,189 --> 01:14:25,600 prophecy is when you are shown the 2075 01:14:31,510 --> 01:14:29,199 future within the dream okay so it's it 2076 01:14:33,350 --> 01:14:31,520 applies in other agents that's your but 2077 01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:33,360 that's your distinction 2078 01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:35,360 and i don't know that that would hold up 2079 01:14:38,550 --> 01:14:37,840 to analysis maybe it would 2080 01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:38,560 but 2081 01:14:41,669 --> 01:14:40,640 maybe it wouldn't you know i mean what 2082 01:14:44,709 --> 01:14:41,679 is the 2083 01:14:46,149 --> 01:14:44,719 agency and how would we deconstruct that 2084 01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:46,159 and what 2085 01:14:50,390 --> 01:14:48,239 from what perspective are we looking at 2086 01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,400 it you know we're looking at it we're 2087 01:14:54,870 --> 01:14:52,800 everything looks like agents maybe from 2088 01:14:56,470 --> 01:14:54,880 another perspective it doesn't look that 2089 01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:56,480 way i don't know 2090 01:15:01,510 --> 01:14:59,120 i keep coming back to this thing that 2091 01:15:02,550 --> 01:15:01,520 the little bit of evidence we have and i 2092 01:15:04,070 --> 01:15:02,560 don't i'm not going to speak 2093 01:15:05,590 --> 01:15:04,080 specifically to your evidence but 2094 01:15:06,709 --> 01:15:05,600 interested in what you think about your 2095 01:15:09,189 --> 01:15:06,719 evidence 2096 01:15:11,910 --> 01:15:09,199 suggests that we are 2097 01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:11,920 definitely disadvantaged in our 2098 01:15:15,510 --> 01:15:13,199 perspective 2099 01:15:16,950 --> 01:15:15,520 right because like people come back 2100 01:15:19,189 --> 01:15:16,960 people like you come back i don't take 2101 01:15:21,110 --> 01:15:19,199 that out scratch that people come back 2102 01:15:22,870 --> 01:15:21,120 from a dear death experience they go i 2103 01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:22,880 knew everything down here i only know 2104 01:15:26,390 --> 01:15:24,880 this tiny little bit people come back 2105 01:15:28,950 --> 01:15:26,400 from an out of body experience they go i 2106 01:15:31,830 --> 01:15:28,960 knew everything now i don't so process 2107 01:15:33,510 --> 01:15:31,840 that not as a story process that as uh 2108 01:15:36,709 --> 01:15:33,520 what is the pattern there the pattern 2109 01:15:39,270 --> 01:15:36,719 says that we are very prone to being 2110 01:15:40,310 --> 01:15:39,280 deceived down here it's just the makeup 2111 01:15:42,630 --> 01:15:40,320 too many things running through the 2112 01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:42,640 brain or whatever the it is but 2113 01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:45,440 that would that would to me be one of 2114 01:15:50,630 --> 01:15:48,080 the guideposts on all that conjecture 2115 01:15:52,950 --> 01:15:50,640 about what prophecy and the distinction 2116 01:15:55,110 --> 01:15:52,960 and spirit it's like first thing we know 2117 01:15:56,550 --> 01:15:55,120 is one if consciousness is fundamental 2118 01:15:58,550 --> 01:15:56,560 all that looks like it doesn't 2119 01:16:00,149 --> 01:15:58,560 matter and then secondly to the extent 2120 01:16:01,430 --> 01:16:00,159 that it does matter we would want to 2121 01:16:03,990 --> 01:16:01,440 figure it out we're in the worst 2122 01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:04,000 possible place to figure that out 2123 01:16:07,669 --> 01:16:06,000 yeah well the way i look at it it's it's 2124 01:16:10,470 --> 01:16:07,679 kind of like you know if you have to 2125 01:16:12,070 --> 01:16:10,480 repair the intercontinental cable that 2126 01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:12,080 you know that goes on the ocean floor 2127 01:16:14,630 --> 01:16:12,960 right 2128 01:16:16,390 --> 01:16:14,640 you have to send divers down there 2129 01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,400 without welding torches and they have to 2130 01:16:20,310 --> 01:16:18,480 have these suits on that essentially 2131 01:16:21,669 --> 01:16:20,320 unless you've got radios or whatever 2132 01:16:22,950 --> 01:16:21,679 they can't hear anything and all they 2133 01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:22,960 can see is what's directly in front of 2134 01:16:26,470 --> 01:16:24,719 them and they have they have no 2135 01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:26,480 knowledge of what's outside the water 2136 01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:28,560 basically and they just focus on that 2137 01:16:32,709 --> 01:16:30,400 one task and to me that's what being 2138 01:16:35,350 --> 01:16:32,719 born into a physical existence is like 2139 01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:35,360 so you can't really and but the thing is 2140 01:16:40,070 --> 01:16:37,199 at the same time you're in you're 2141 01:16:41,830 --> 01:16:40,080 capable of doing something important 2142 01:16:43,270 --> 01:16:41,840 even though you're cut off from all 2143 01:16:45,830 --> 01:16:43,280 those other normal sources of 2144 01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:45,840 information so i think that what we do 2145 01:16:50,470 --> 01:16:48,400 here is actually important in some way 2146 01:16:52,870 --> 01:16:50,480 even though we have stripped ourselves 2147 01:16:54,950 --> 01:16:52,880 of other abilities 2148 01:16:56,550 --> 01:16:54,960 but anyway as far as what i'm doing i 2149 01:16:58,070 --> 01:16:56,560 mean i'm actually wanting to get back to 2150 01:16:59,590 --> 01:16:58,080 normal let's just put it that way i want 2151 01:17:01,750 --> 01:16:59,600 to get back to normal i'm writing right 2152 01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:01,760 now i'm drawing comics i want to do 2153 01:17:05,510 --> 01:17:03,760 photos but i want stuff to get back to 2154 01:17:07,510 --> 01:17:05,520 normal i want to go back to not having 2155 01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:07,520 to wonder what my neighbors are going to 2156 01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:09,040 think of wearing masks and not wearing 2157 01:17:12,630 --> 01:17:11,199 masks i want to go back to just being 2158 01:17:14,390 --> 01:17:12,640 able to say hi how are you it's a 2159 01:17:15,430 --> 01:17:14,400 beautiful day and not worry about that 2160 01:17:17,270 --> 01:17:15,440 stuff because this is just really 2161 01:17:19,910 --> 01:17:17,280 distressing 2162 01:17:22,870 --> 01:17:19,920 well andy it's been great having you on 2163 01:17:24,870 --> 01:17:22,880 and uh now i'm even more psyched to do 2164 01:17:27,189 --> 01:17:24,880 this second show that we're gonna do in 2165 01:17:29,910 --> 01:17:27,199 a week or two and and we'll we'll bring 2166 01:17:31,910 --> 01:17:29,920 that to people as well so thanks again 2167 01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:31,920 no problem that was great talking to you 2168 01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:32,800 alex 2169 01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:34,719 thanks again to dr andy paquette for 2170 01:17:38,390 --> 01:17:37,040 joining me today on skeptico i usually 2171 01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:38,400 tee up one question from these 2172 01:17:42,630 --> 01:17:40,560 interviews but today i have to tee up 2173 01:17:46,070 --> 01:17:42,640 three questions in this kind of level 2174 01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:46,080 thing that i do level one question is 2175 01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:48,480 do you think as we claim this study 2176 01:17:52,950 --> 01:17:51,520 shows a null result that's level one 2177 01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:52,960 level two 2178 01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:55,440 is this study big lie propaganda as i 2179 01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:57,520 claimed in this interview and question 2180 01:18:02,950 --> 01:17:59,280 three level three 2181 01:18:04,709 --> 01:18:02,960 who's behind this and are they evil 2182 01:18:07,030 --> 01:18:04,719 let me know your thoughts skeptical 2183 01:18:09,910 --> 01:18:07,040 forum is one place email me however you 2184 01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:09,920 find me until next time take care and